Love yourself?

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Newme
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Love yourself?

Post by Newme » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:45 am

By “love” I don’t just mean pampering, but also discipline physically and mentally - improving thoughts, not beating oneself up. Others may do that enough. It’s a constant challenge.

This clip has helped me. It’s basically about this self-love as a discipline and about surrounding yourself with people who are more healthy. Nobody’s perfect, but herd mentalities like the mormon cult and identity politics are extra dysfunctional because mob mentality is inherently insane.

https://youtu.be/PAnYCUH0Rms
(Some cussing)

Do you love yourself? If not, why not? If so, how do you?

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Not Buying It
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Re: Love yourself?

Post by Not Buying It » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:12 am

Newme wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:45 am
By “love” I don’t just mean pampering, but also discipline physically and mentally - improving thoughts, not beating oneself up. Others may do that enough. It’s a constant challenge.

This clip has helped me. It’s basically about this self-love as a discipline and about surrounding yourself with people who are more healthy. Nobody’s perfect, but herd mentalities like the mormon cult and identity politics are extra dysfunctional because mob mentality is inherently insane.

https://youtu.be/PAnYCUH0Rms
(Some cussing)

Do you love yourself? If not, why not? If so, how do you?
You know, it’s interesting, I’ve thought a lot lately about how I’ve had to disconnect how I feel about myself from how the Church feels about me. From the time we are young, we see the Church judge others, we see the disapproval leveled at those who question or leave the Church, beginning at 12 we are required to meet with leaders who determine our “worthiness”. We are taught to think what the Church thinks about us is important to how we feel about ourselves. I’ve had to constantly remind myself that what my member family or friends or random people in the ward think about me shouldn’t impact how I think about myself. I can’t engage in self-evaluation on their terms, because the game is rigged against me - I have to completely disengage with their framework and see myself on my own terms.

It’s most insidious with my parents - like anyone, I want to be a good son, but I know to my parents I can’t be a “good son” if I’m not active and believing in the Church. I have to constantly remind myself that I don’t have to be chained to their definition of a “good son”.

So, yes, I love myself - but in order to do that I have to be ever self-vigilant about leaving a lot of Mormon baggage behind, because the Church would have me define my worth as a person in terms of my devotion to the Church.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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græy
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Re: Love yourself?

Post by græy » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:44 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:12 am
Newme wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:45 am
By “love” I don’t just mean pampering, but also discipline physically and mentally - improving thoughts, not beating oneself up. Others may do that enough. It’s a constant challenge.

This clip has helped me. It’s basically about this self-love as a discipline and about surrounding yourself with people who are more healthy. Nobody’s perfect, but herd mentalities like the mormon cult and identity politics are extra dysfunctional because mob mentality is inherently insane.

https://youtu.be/PAnYCUH0Rms
(Some cussing)

Do you love yourself? If not, why not? If so, how do you?
So, yes, I love myself - but in order to do that I have to be ever self-vigilant about leaving a lot of Mormon baggage behind, because the Church would have me define my worth as a person in terms of my devotion to the Church.
This is something I'm not great at, although I do think it has gotten a heck of a lot easier to feel good about who I am versus pre-faith-transition. I remember days/weeks when I could recognize that things were going well, that I was doing well by church standards, and hoping that I could get hit by a bus during one of those periods because then I'd at least die while heading the right direction.

Now, I recognize that I can be imperfect and still be a good person. I can see that growth or improvement in any part of my life can bring joy, it doesn't have be strictly related to church service or scriptural understanding. I can give my kids the same freedom and reiterate over and over that they are allowed to be themselves, make mistakes, and that I will ALWAYS love them, accept them, and support them.

As you said NBI, it requires boundaries and recognizing where the views of others, including the church, are not relevant for your own individual worth or happiness.
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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Newme
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Re: Love yourself?

Post by Newme » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:19 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:12 am
Newme wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:45 am
By “love” I don’t just mean pampering, but also discipline physically and mentally - improving thoughts, not beating oneself up. Others may do that enough. It’s a constant challenge.

This clip has helped me. It’s basically about this self-love as a discipline and about surrounding yourself with people who are more healthy. Nobody’s perfect, but herd mentalities like the mormon cult and identity politics are extra dysfunctional because mob mentality is inherently insane.

https://youtu.be/PAnYCUH0Rms
(Some cussing)

Do you love yourself? If not, why not? If so, how do you?
You know, it’s interesting, I’ve thought a lot lately about how I’ve had to disconnect how I feel about myself from how the Church feels about me. From the time we are young, we see the Church judge others, we see the disapproval leveled at those who question or leave the Church, beginning at 12 we are required to meet with leaders who determine our “worthiness”. We are taught to think what the Church thinks about us is important to how we feel about ourselves. I’ve had to constantly remind myself that what my member family or friends or random people in the ward think about me shouldn’t impact how I think about myself. I can’t engage in self-evaluation on their terms, because the game is rigged against me - I have to completely disengage with their framework and see myself on my own terms.

It’s most insidious with my parents - like anyone, I want to be a good son, but I know to my parents I can’t be a “good son” if I’m not active and believing in the Church. I have to constantly remind myself that I don’t have to be chained to their definition of a “good son”.

So, yes, I love myself - but in order to do that I have to be ever self-vigilant about leaving a lot of Mormon baggage behind, because the Church would have me define my worth as a person in terms of my devotion to the Church.
That’s awesome.
I want to get away from caring so much what they think. Maybe partly why it’s so difficult is because I feel like I need them - as support and just to be there for me and I for them. It’s felt like grieving loss of them - realizing they choose the cult and the cultish family leader/gossip (our mother) over me. Maybe I need to be patient - eventually some of them may come around. I shouldn’t write them off just yet. Boundaries - especially for those most sick, but the rest - just more laid back.

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alas
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Re: Love yourself?

Post by alas » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:23 am

Newme wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:19 pm
Not Buying It wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:12 am
Newme wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:45 am
By “love” I don’t just mean pampering, but also discipline physically and mentally - improving thoughts, not beating oneself up. Others may do that enough. It’s a constant challenge.

This clip has helped me. It’s basically about this self-love as a discipline and about surrounding yourself with people who are more healthy. Nobody’s perfect, but herd mentalities like the mormon cult and identity politics are extra dysfunctional because mob mentality is inherently insane.

https://youtu.be/PAnYCUH0Rms
(Some cussing)

Do you love yourself? If not, why not? If so, how do you?
You know, it’s interesting, I’ve thought a lot lately about how I’ve had to disconnect how I feel about myself from how the Church feels about me. From the time we are young, we see the Church judge others, we see the disapproval leveled at those who question or leave the Church, beginning at 12 we are required to meet with leaders who determine our “worthiness”. We are taught to think what the Church thinks about us is important to how we feel about ourselves. I’ve had to constantly remind myself that what my member family or friends or random people in the ward think about me shouldn’t impact how I think about myself. I can’t engage in self-evaluation on their terms, because the game is rigged against me - I have to completely disengage with their framework and see myself on my own terms.

It’s most insidious with my parents - like anyone, I want to be a good son, but I know to my parents I can’t be a “good son” if I’m not active and believing in the Church. I have to constantly remind myself that I don’t have to be chained to their definition of a “good son”.

So, yes, I love myself - but in order to do that I have to be ever self-vigilant about leaving a lot of Mormon baggage behind, because the Church would have me define my worth as a person in terms of my devotion to the Church.
That’s awesome.
I want to get away from caring so much what they think. Maybe partly why it’s so difficult is because I feel like I need them - as support and just to be there for me and I for them. It’s felt like grieving loss of them - realizing they choose the cult and the cultish family leader/gossip (our mother) over me. Maybe I need to be patient - eventually some of them may come around. I shouldn’t write them off just yet. Boundaries - especially for those most sick, but the rest - just more laid back.
I think with family, it is impossible not to be hurt when they judge us about our religious choices. I mean, them thinking we are in the clutches of Satan is a pretty harsh judgement. And it s such an nfair judgement. Here we are doing our best to search out truth, to be honest, to live authentically, to live an actual Christ like life, and because we see real facts they refuse to see, they think we are the ones who are evil. With their fingers in their ears screaming, “la la la la la” so they won’t hear any truth, they have the audacity to think we are the ones who are misled.

But there is a difference between being hurt by how they feel and agreeing with them. We do not have to base our opinion of ourselves on what any body else thinks of us. This is hard at first because as children we really do need our parents love and approval. And after the first 18 years of our life, it is hard to switch gears and put what we think as top priority. It is hard to purposely do something we know they don’t approve of. And we will probably always have a hurt spot in ur heart when we know our parents are not proud of us.

But the choice opposite choice is worse, we cannot love ourselves if we are not true to ourselves. We can love ourselves if our parents are unhappy with us. But see, we each remember a time that as a child, losing our parents love would mean death. Think of how we humans evolved. Humans have a l-o-n-g childhood in which if our parents do not take care of us and protect us we die. So, if we lose their love, we just know we will die. So, now we are an adult and can take care of ourselves, but that instinct does not just go away. And humans were social animals. We needed a group to survive, so really that feeling of “if I lose the love of my people, I will die,” never goes away. This is what we are dealing with when we do something we know our tribe will not accept.

But our society doesn’t really cast people out into the wilderness alone any more. So it takes doing it and finding out you survive just fine. In fact, your family may yell at you, but they still love you. And you find you like yourself better.

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Advocate
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Re: Love yourself?

Post by Advocate » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:14 am

Sometimes I wonder if there is a correlation between people who are independent (used here to mean a person who needs a very low level of approval from others) with those that go through a faith transition. I know in my own situation, I have always been quite independent (don't care about approval from others) whereas my wife (a s-l-o-w-l-y changing TBM) often voices concern about what other ward members might be thinking about her.

Church leaders have designed the church in such a way (both culture and official function) that approval from your peers is really important. If your peer's opinions are important to you, then it will be difficult to do something (e.g. disagree with church leaders) that will garner disapproval from your peers.

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moksha
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Re: Love yourself?

Post by moksha » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:10 am

Loving God and others must include ourself since we are not god. I like the way the Desiderata put it, "be gentle with yourself".
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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MoPag
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Re: Love yourself?

Post by MoPag » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:13 pm

græy wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:44 pm

This is something I'm not great at, although I do think it has gotten a heck of a lot easier to feel good about who I am versus pre-faith-transition.
Same^ It's so much easier to love myself when I don't feel like a failure all the time.

Thanks for sharing this Newme.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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glass shelf
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Re: Love yourself?

Post by glass shelf » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:09 am

Advocate wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:14 am
Sometimes I wonder if there is a correlation between people who are independent (used here to mean a person who needs a very low level of approval from others) with those that go through a faith transition. I know in my own situation, I have always been quite independent (don't care about approval from others) whereas my wife (a s-l-o-w-l-y changing TBM) often voices concern about what other ward members might be thinking about her.

Church leaders have designed the church in such a way (both culture and official function) that approval from your peers is really important. If your peer's opinions are important to you, then it will be difficult to do something (e.g. disagree with church leaders) that will garner disapproval from your peers.

I can add my anecdotal evidence--not for me. I was a type-A, people-pleasing, boundaryless doormat for way too long. I think part of it was personality and part ot if was being raised to be so as the oldest daughter in a Mormon family.

I had started changing and developing boundaries before I left the church, but it's been a long journey. It took me a long time to realize it's okay to put myself first.

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Newme
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Re: Love yourself?

Post by Newme » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:58 am

alas wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:23 am
Newme wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:19 pm
That’s awesome.
I want to get away from caring so much what they think. Maybe partly why it’s so difficult is because I feel like I need them - as support and just to be there for me and I for them. It’s felt like grieving loss of them - realizing they choose the cult and the cultish family leader/gossip (our mother) over me. Maybe I need to be patient - eventually some of them may come around. I shouldn’t write them off just yet. Boundaries - especially for those most sick, but the rest - just more laid back.
I think with family, it is impossible not to be hurt when they judge us about our religious choices. I mean, them thinking we are in the clutches of Satan is a pretty harsh judgement. And it s such an nfair judgement. Here we are doing our best to search out truth, to be honest, to live authentically, to live an actual Christ like life, and because we see real facts they refuse to see, they think we are the ones who are evil. With their fingers in their ears screaming, “la la la la la” so they won’t hear any truth, they have the audacity to think we are the ones who are misled.

But there is a difference between being hurt by how they feel and agreeing with them. We do not have to base our opinion of ourselves on what any body else thinks of us. This is hard at first because as children we really do need our parents love and approval. And after the first 18 years of our life, it is hard to switch gears and put what we think as top priority. It is hard to purposely do something we know they don’t approve of. And we will probably always have a hurt spot in ur heart when we know our parents are not proud of us.

But the choice opposite choice is worse, we cannot love ourselves if we are not true to ourselves. We can love ourselves if our parents are unhappy with us. But see, we each remember a time that as a child, losing our parents love would mean death. Think of how we humans evolved. Humans have a l-o-n-g childhood in which if our parents do not take care of us and protect us we die. So, if we lose their love, we just know we will die. So, now we are an adult and can take care of ourselves, but that instinct does not just go away. And humans were social animals. We needed a group to survive, so really that feeling of “if I lose the love of my people, I will die,” never goes away. This is what we are dealing with when we do something we know our tribe will not accept.

But our society doesn’t really cast people out into the wilderness alone any more. So it takes doing it and finding out you survive just fine. In fact, your family may yell at you, but they still love you. And you find you like yourself better.
Thanks, Alas. You often have so much wisdom to share.
It’s good to realize the deeper reason for such pain in feeling mistreated by TBM family. I am building a support base of non-lds, & though it may never really substitute for family, in many ways, it’s healthier. It’s taken me a while to realize my family of origin is not healthy. So, I love them from a distance.

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Newme
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Re: Love yourself?

Post by Newme » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:03 am

Advocate wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:14 am
Sometimes I wonder if there is a correlation between people who are independent (used here to mean a person who needs a very low level of approval from others) with those that go through a faith transition. I know in my own situation, I have always been quite independent (don't care about approval from others) whereas my wife (a s-l-o-w-l-y changing TBM) often voices concern about what other ward members might be thinking about her.

Church leaders have designed the church in such a way (both culture and official function) that approval from your peers is really important. If your peer's opinions are important to you, then it will be difficult to do something (e.g. disagree with church leaders) that will garner disapproval from your peers.
That’s a valid observation. It reminds me of a theory called, “Positive Disintegration” which suggests not everyone goes through it all, partly because other things are more important to them (like fitting in socially).

I do care - too much - what others think of me. But truth is even more important to me. Even when I was TBM, I wanted to figure out exactly how the atonement worked. I didn’t want to just accept it because others said so, I wanted to know the truth - to make sense of it. And there was another seed planted for my faith crisis.

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Newme
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Re: Love yourself?

Post by Newme » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:07 am

moksha wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:10 am
Loving God and others must include ourself since we are not god. I like the way the Desiderata put it, "be gentle with yourself".
I like it! Thank you. :)

Image

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Newme
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Re: Love yourself?

Post by Newme » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:10 am

MoPag wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:13 pm
græy wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:44 pm

This is something I'm not great at, although I do think it has gotten a heck of a lot easier to feel good about who I am versus pre-faith-transition.
Same^ It's so much easier to love myself when I don't feel like a failure all the time.

Thanks for sharing this Newme.
I’m glad it’s resonated.
I also felt a huge burden lifted once I got passed some of the grieving process of my faith crisis. Before, I felt overwhelming - crushing - shame. I still have to overcome some critical mental habits, but it’s getting better and better.

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Newme
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Re: Love yourself?

Post by Newme » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:17 am

glass shelf wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:09 am
Advocate wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:14 am
Sometimes I wonder if there is a correlation between people who are independent (used here to mean a person who needs a very low level of approval from others) with those that go through a faith transition. I know in my own situation, I have always been quite independent (don't care about approval from others) whereas my wife (a s-l-o-w-l-y changing TBM) often voices concern about what other ward members might be thinking about her.

Church leaders have designed the church in such a way (both culture and official function) that approval from your peers is really important. If your peer's opinions are important to you, then it will be difficult to do something (e.g. disagree with church leaders) that will garner disapproval from your peers.

I can add my anecdotal evidence--not for me. I was a type-A, people-pleasing, boundaryless doormat for way too long. I think part of it was personality and part ot if was being raised to be so as the oldest daughter in a Mormon family.

I had started changing and developing boundaries before I left the church, but it's been a long journey. It took me a long time to realize it's okay to put myself first.
So much factors in - personality, birth order, family of origin dynamics, besides cultish-religious upbringing. I also was kind of co-dependent in feeling responsible to please others. The problem is that despite co-dependency, self-sacrifice and subjugation being considered generally unhealthy, in the church and many circles, they are praised. You know what’s funny? I needed a break from church and so I got everything prepared for my calling so I could take 2 Sundays off. I was asked where I was going. I said, “A retreat” - my own retreat away from church. :D

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