Ed Smart comes out as gay

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wtfluff
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Re: Ed Smart comes out as gay

Post by wtfluff » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:42 am

Blashyrkh: If you want to be angry at someone/something for "destroying" the Smart family: Be angry at the greedy, lying "church" that basically created his family on false pretenses.

I suppose that if Ed had come out as a polygamist, and was "destroying his family" because he was in fact now sleeping with a "bunch" of Relief Society presidents, that you would be singing his praises?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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MoPag
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Re: Ed Smart comes out as gay

Post by MoPag » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:15 am

jfro18 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:27 pm
Since I started researching the church last March I have seen story after story of people who are gay but marry and have kids because of the church.

This is such a harmful church because they don't talk to God and yet they force so many people to completely distort their reality to fit into it.

And not only is this grossly abusive and unfair to the gay person in the relationship, but how awful is it for the spouse who has lived AND HAD KIDS with someone who was gay all along?!

Seriously - that makes my blood boil. They've tried electroshock therapy under Dallin Oaks at BYU, they've blamed masturbation, they've said it can be cured, that it's a choice, and even claimed revelations that God labeled them all apostates.

And at the end of the day all this church does to these people is destroy their identity and their chance at love.

And Ed Smart is just another example of that.

Good for him for coming out, but man I feel for his family.
YES^^^ Thank you for pointing this out.

I hate how the church leaders think it is totally fine to use women to "fix" gay men. Same thing happened to a girl I grew up with. Her now ex was pressured to marry a woman and was promised that would fix his homosexuality. She wasn't told anything and went into he marriage believing she had found her happily ever after. He came out and left her soon after their second child was born.

Let's not forget the tragedy and heartache of the straight spouse. Shame on any leader who advocated using a woman (or man) like this!!
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Not Buying It
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Re: Ed Smart comes out as gay

Post by Not Buying It » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:15 am

Let’s be fair to Blashrykh - while “destroying” may not be the word everyone might choose, Ed Smart’s family is changing significantly in a way that is difficult for the parties involved. The marital connection between Smart and his wife is in fact “destroyed” through divorce, whatever friendship they may or may not retain. Let’s not make someone an offender for a word.

And I think it is fair to point out that Sister Smart is in a place she would not have expected to be at her age due to the divorce. We shouldn’t ignore that this will inevitably have some negative consequences. However amicable the divorce, anyone who imagines this is a completely positive experience for everyone involved doesn’t know what a divorce is like. Again, Blashrykh is not wrong, Ed Smart has made some choices that whatever positive consequences they might bring, bring pain for his family along with them.

But I still think it unfair to blame Ed Smart completely - the Church deserves a great deal of blame for putting him in this position in the first place. He has had to make some difficult choices I am not in a position to judge.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: Ed Smart comes out as gay

Post by PalmSprings » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:17 pm

NOTHING is private about Facebook. You can add to that list twitter, Instagram and any other of those big social media sites. If you are well known or infamous, anything you post can come back and bite you. And in this case it came back to bite Ed Smart. From the way I see it this situation is messed up on all sides. Everyone has some part of the blame for the hell the Smart family is going through.

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Re: Ed Smart comes out as gay

Post by alas » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:27 am

PalmSprings wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:17 pm
NOTHING is private about Facebook. You can add to that list twitter, Instagram and any other of those big social media sites. If you are well known or infamous, anything you post can come back and bite you. And in this case it came back to bite Ed Smart. From the way I see it this situation is messed up on all sides. Everyone has some part of the blame for the hell the Smart family is going through.
Yes, and with the way Ed used the media to keep people searching for his daughter, you think there is any possibility that Ed didn’t know this would become public? Seriously? He knew that by telling more than his immediate family, that it would go public and as soon as he was seen with a man in public, everyone would be speculating about the reason for the divorce. Nope, he used the fact that it would become public in a way that said, “This is the basic situation, now leave my family alone.” By saying it was only meant for close friends and family, he was telling the public at large that it is none of your G*d damn business. He was labeling the fact that it got leaked as “people sure are gossips” and making everyone who knows feel just a little guilty for having been told, like they got caught gossiping. Ed knows what he was doing in the way this “leaked” out.


Now, I kind of have seen this situation from both sides, er ...maybe three sides. My SIL got dumped by her first gay husband after four kids. He was not considerate about it, because knowing my SIL he had to be a bit cruel to make her stop loving and clinging to him. But I think he divorced his kiddos too, so kind of different that Ed Smart. I would call how he came out destroying his family. So, I have seen a destroyed family up close. I also have a daughter who is lesbian and married a guy, then divorced. Because being “that way” was so frowned on, she did not even recognize in herself that she just was not really attracted to men. I saw it and scratched my head about her choice of men that I would call effeminate. It wasn’t like there were no masculine guys attracted to her, but she saw them as dear friends and married the...what is a word for a guy who is physically small, nerdy, and...well, it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if some of the guys she dated turn out transgender. And for the third side of this, one of the guys I dated was gay. He kissed me and I sort of knew——-but this was back in ‘69 and I was 17 and didn’t know a heck of a lot, but I knew that he was not sexually attracted to me, in spite of all his comments that indicated he thought I was very attractive, but there is a difference between thinking someone is attractive and *feeling* attracted. But we stayed friends. He died of AIDS.

Anyway, I really understand how a gay guy, in 1970—about now would marry a woman. Heck, is the other option, the one my friend picked before AIDS was even known, and died of AIDS, a better choice? There were NO good choices. Even my niece who only came out 10 years ago cut herself off from her family of origin because her TBM mother could not accept that she really was not just going through a phase, or making a bad choice.

Now, the rest s just me asking questions, so correct me if I say something insensitive, cause I feel some confusion.

So, what is wrong when a woman is kissed by a gay guy and doesn’t realize something is wrong? Or has sex with him and he isn’t quite not it?

My SIL is more damaged by the feeling that her first husband didn’t really love her, than by the fact that he eventually dumped her. She knew from the beginning something was off, because she felt “not good enough” “not attractive enough” something wrong in the marriage, but blamed herself.

With my friend, I had no clue before that kiss that he was gay. He had dated a close friend and when he broke up with her, he kind of stuck around my small circle of friends. The girl he had started out dating started dating his best friend, so we just kept him and their other close friend as part of our circle. The guys brought dates and the girls would bring a date. When I didn’t have a date to bring to whatever party or dance, he took me. And by now we were pretty close what with some heavy discussions about the church, how it treated blacks, the disaster of the Indian placement program and how the church considered gay thoughts/feelings a sin. So, us dating was kind of a given. I KNEW with that first kiss, that the sexual chemistry was not there. So, what is wrong when a woman can’t tell? What is wrong with her instincts? I can kind of see what is wrong in my SIL, maybe, just guessing. it is a need to be loved that overrides her own common sense and her instincts about what love is. It is the same kind of need to be loved that makes a woman ignore red flags she actually sees about an abuser.

Anyway, anyone else have thoughts?

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Palerider
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Re: Ed Smart comes out as gay

Post by Palerider » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:23 am

alas wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:27 am
I KNEW with that first kiss, that the sexual chemistry was not there. So, what is wrong when a woman can’t tell? What is wrong with her instincts? I can kind of see what is wrong in my SIL, maybe, just guessing. it is a need to be loved that overrides her own common sense and her instincts about what love is. It is the same kind of need to be loved that makes a woman ignore red flags she actually sees about an abuser.

Anyway, anyone else have thoughts?
Just an honest question here, Alas.

Is it possible that with the church's emphasis on no smooching, petting or premarital sex that an "inexperienced" woman might not be all that sure of what to expect?

If one watches a passionate kiss on screen there is the impression of some serious fireworks and desire, but TBM young women are told all of their lives that the cinema lies about sex and intimate relationships.

Could a naive woman not really know what she should be feeling?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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alas
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Re: Ed Smart comes out as gay

Post by alas » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:35 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:23 am
alas wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:27 am
I KNEW with that first kiss, that the sexual chemistry was not there. So, what is wrong when a woman can’t tell? What is wrong with her instincts? I can kind of see what is wrong in my SIL, maybe, just guessing. it is a need to be loved that overrides her own common sense and her instincts about what love is. It is the same kind of need to be loved that makes a woman ignore red flags she actually sees about an abuser.

Anyway, anyone else have thoughts?
Just an honest question here, Alas.

Is it possible that with the church's emphasis on no smooching, petting or premarital sex that an "inexperienced" woman might not be all that sure of what to expect?

If one watches a passionate kiss on screen there is the impression of some serious fireworks and desire, but TBM young women are told all of their lives that the cinema lies about sex and intimate relationships.

Could a naive woman not really know what she should be feeling?
I was very inexperienced at that point, so, um, I don’t see how. And it wasn’t just me not feeling the attraction or chemistry. I think I was too inexperienced at that point to say what it was that was missing, but I knew something was off. I didn’t know what until much later. But I knew not to fall in love with him, I mean, I already loved him as a person, but I knew not to let it go beyond friendship.

Or .....maybe I see things other people are oblivious to? People have told me I have some sort of sixth sense with people. I have known someone is transgender before they are out or transition. I seem to pick up on red flags from men. I have had several times when my creep alarm went off with a guy all the other women thought were great and then he is arrested for child sexual abuse or fired from his grade school teaching job for vague inappropriate something obviously not up to prosecution levels, or my own Um...unnamed relative who set off creep vibes and years later, it comes back to us about some borderline inappropriate creepiness with the nieces. Or in the waiting rooms for counseling, I could pick out the physically abusive men. Or the husband of one client sets off alarm bells then later another client names her sexually abusive brother, not knowing I have family as clients because with confidentiality, I can’t exactly tell them, hey I am seeing your sister. Or some random guy at church sets off my alarms and turns out he is on his 5th wife. Or the random guy at church who sets off my gaydar, and sure enough, 10 years later he comes out gay. Or my visiting teaching sister that I know is being abused but she denies anything is wrong, then she kills her husband and then herself and her family claim there was years of abuse and it was probably self defense.

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Re: Ed Smart comes out as gay

Post by Palerider » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:05 pm

alas wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:35 pm

Or .....maybe I see things other people are oblivious to? People have told me I have some sort of sixth sense with people.

Ha ha!

You have one of those built in B.S. meters just like me. I inherited mine from my mother. :)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

Keewon
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Re: Ed Smart comes out as gay

Post by Keewon » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:31 pm

Having been out of the NOM loop for a couple years, I don't know whether the experiences of Josh and Lolly Weed have been talked about here, but if not, this would be a good time to bring them up. The Weeds are a recently divorced mixed-orientation couple, both LDS and marriage counselors, who opened their lives and experiences to the world for several years through their very well thought-out blog. They went into marriage knowing Josh was gay, and believing they had received a confirmation from the Spirit that this was the right thing to do. Their divorce announcement is incredibly articulate as to why in general mixed orientation marriages are just a bad idea, with lessons learned and thoughts about their future.

http://joshweed.com/turning-unicorn-bat ... -marriage/

With apologies, Lolly's explanation in particular strikes me as so incredibly insightful, that I'm going to post part of it here:


For me, giving my whole heart to Josh while knowing that he did not love me the way a man loves a woman has always been devastating. We were best friends, but he never desired me, he never adored me, he never longed for me. People who read our previous post might be confused because we mention having a robust sex life. That was true. We put forth a lot of effort and were “mechanically” good at sex—and it did help us to feel intimate, and for a time that closeness did help us to feel content in our sex life—but I don’t remember him ever looking at me with passion in his eyes.

After talking about this with my sister-in-law, she said, “but you guys have such a special relationship. You’re intimate in so many other ways. Believe me, sex is not worth throwing away the connection that you two have.” From the outside looking in, I can see why she would think that, but the truth is our relationship was missing more than just a primal sexual connection . . . it was missing romantic attachment.

Josh has never looked at me with romantic love in his eyes. He has never touched me with the sensitive touch of a lover. Whenever he held me in his arms, it was with a love that was similar to the love of a brother to a sister. That does eventually take its toll on your self-esteem. No matter how much I knew “why” he couldn’t respond to me in the ways a lover responds to a partner, it wears a person down, as if you’re not “good enough” to be loved “in that way.” ...

This deficit started to mess with my self-esteem. I almost felt if only I could be thinner, prettier, sexier, maybe it would be enough to catch Josh’s eye, to help him want me in the way we need to be wanted by our attachment partners. In reality, Josh was GAY and it had nothing to do with me. This is where it doesn’t make sense. I knew he was gay. I didn’t think his sexual orientation was going to change. I could have been the hottest woman on the planet and he still would not have felt any different toward me. No matter how clear I was on the technicalities of this reality, it was impossible not to internalize his complete lack of attraction toward me. Subconsciously, it was a constant message. You aren’t attractive. You aren’t wanted. You aren’t beautiful. You aren’t a good enough woman.

It was making me unhealthy. I gained a lot of weight. My self-concept was diminishing over time. What was worse, I knew my little girls were watching me as their example of what a woman can be, of what healthy womanhood looked like–and they were also watching my marriage. I knew they were getting messages and concepts from me that were not setting them on a path of self-esteem and self-actualized womanhood. It was breaking my heart to see this.

The truth is, Josh and I didn’t understand how to conceptualize our relationship. We knew we had a deep love for each other, but honestly, neither one of us had ever loved anyone in a true romantic way. We got married so young and had dated so little, neither of us had really experienced what true romantic attachment felt like. It was just a concept to us, and as such we were able to be in denial about it. We told ourselves that our love was similar to that of an elderly couple after infatuation and physical attraction had died away and what remained was a tender bond of love. That was the framework we used to understand our relationship. Using that framework, I was willing to sacrifice that sexual component because Josh was worth it to me.

However, as the years went by, and the holes in our souls grew larger and larger, we realized that our relationship was not like an elderly couple because, although the elderly couple’s sexual relationship had dimmed, their romantic adoration for one another did not. When we wrote our viral post five years ago, we were still stuck in this delusion, thinking that our relationship had no deficits, and that choosing to love was enough. But eventually we realized what we were missing. We realized the thing that so many people had tried to tell us: that we didn’t have romantic attachment. That romantic attachment was essential to a functioning marriage. And that it was something that we never had and, hauntingly, that we never would.

I remember talking to my mom about this and explaining that the void in our relationship was not even really about sex. If it were just about sex, we could handle it. We would be willing, and were willing, to sacrifice that. People can live without sex. Then I asked her what it would be like if she had to marry her best female friend, Joyce, whom she loves dearly. I asked if it would be as fulfilling as her love for my dad because she also loves Joyce. She said, “No, it would be different because I don’t love Joyce in that way.” To which I said, “But you do love her and you could live a nice life. But, would it compare to your life with Dad?” She said “no.” Then I asked if the difference in a life with Joyce and a life with Dad was just about sexuality. Would the only difference in a relationship with Dad and a relationship with Joyce be between having sex with a man versus having sex with a woman? The answer was clearly no. That is because she is not romantically attached to her best friend. And that is what human beings need to be healthy. All of us. Romantic attachment. It’s one of the main purposes of life!

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Re: Ed Smart comes out as gay

Post by alas » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:13 pm

Keewon wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:31 pm
Having been out of the NOM loop for a couple years, I don't know whether the experiences of Josh and Lolly Weed have been talked about here, but if not, this would be a good time to bring them up. The Weeds are a recently divorced mixed-orientation couple, both LDS and marriage counselors, who opened their lives and experiences to the world for several years through their very well thought-out blog. They went into marriage knowing Josh was gay, and believing they had received a confirmation from the Spirit that this was the right thing to do. Their divorce announcement is incredibly articulate as to why in general mixed orientation marriages are just a bad idea, with lessons learned and thoughts about their future.

http://joshweed.com/turning-unicorn-bat ... -marriage/

With apologies, Lolly's explanation in particular strikes me as so incredibly insightful, that I'm going to post part of it here:


For me, giving my whole heart to Josh while knowing that he did not love me the way a man loves a woman has always been devastating. We were best friends, but he never desired me, he never adored me, he never longed for me. People who read our previous post might be confused because we mention having a robust sex life. That was true. We put forth a lot of effort and were “mechanically” good at sex—and it did help us to feel intimate, and for a time that closeness did help us to feel content in our sex life—but I don’t remember him ever looking at me with passion in his eyes.

After talking about this with my sister-in-law, she said, “but you guys have such a special relationship. You’re intimate in so many other ways. Believe me, sex is not worth throwing away the connection that you two have.” From the outside looking in, I can see why she would think that, but the truth is our relationship was missing more than just a primal sexual connection . . . it was missing romantic attachment.

Josh has never looked at me with romantic love in his eyes. He has never touched me with the sensitive touch of a lover. Whenever he held me in his arms, it was with a love that was similar to the love of a brother to a sister. That does eventually take its toll on your self-esteem. No matter how much I knew “why” he couldn’t respond to me in the ways a lover responds to a partner, it wears a person down, as if you’re not “good enough” to be loved “in that way.” ...

This deficit started to mess with my self-esteem. I almost felt if only I could be thinner, prettier, sexier, maybe it would be enough to catch Josh’s eye, to help him want me in the way we need to be wanted by our attachment partners. In reality, Josh was GAY and it had nothing to do with me. This is where it doesn’t make sense. I knew he was gay. I didn’t think his sexual orientation was going to change. I could have been the hottest woman on the planet and he still would not have felt any different toward me. No matter how clear I was on the technicalities of this reality, it was impossible not to internalize his complete lack of attraction toward me. Subconsciously, it was a constant message. You aren’t attractive. You aren’t wanted. You aren’t beautiful. You aren’t a good enough woman.

It was making me unhealthy. I gained a lot of weight. My self-concept was diminishing over time. What was worse, I knew my little girls were watching me as their example of what a woman can be, of what healthy womanhood looked like–and they were also watching my marriage. I knew they were getting messages and concepts from me that were not setting them on a path of self-esteem and self-actualized womanhood. It was breaking my heart to see this.

The truth is, Josh and I didn’t understand how to conceptualize our relationship. We knew we had a deep love for each other, but honestly, neither one of us had ever loved anyone in a true romantic way. We got married so young and had dated so little, neither of us had really experienced what true romantic attachment felt like. It was just a concept to us, and as such we were able to be in denial about it. We told ourselves that our love was similar to that of an elderly couple after infatuation and physical attraction had died away and what remained was a tender bond of love. That was the framework we used to understand our relationship. Using that framework, I was willing to sacrifice that sexual component because Josh was worth it to me.

However, as the years went by, and the holes in our souls grew larger and larger, we realized that our relationship was not like an elderly couple because, although the elderly couple’s sexual relationship had dimmed, their romantic adoration for one another did not. When we wrote our viral post five years ago, we were still stuck in this delusion, thinking that our relationship had no deficits, and that choosing to love was enough. But eventually we realized what we were missing. We realized the thing that so many people had tried to tell us: that we didn’t have romantic attachment. That romantic attachment was essential to a functioning marriage. And that it was something that we never had and, hauntingly, that we never would.

I remember talking to my mom about this and explaining that the void in our relationship was not even really about sex. If it were just about sex, we could handle it. We would be willing, and were willing, to sacrifice that. People can live without sex. Then I asked her what it would be like if she had to marry her best female friend, Joyce, whom she loves dearly. I asked if it would be as fulfilling as her love for my dad because she also loves Joyce. She said, “No, it would be different because I don’t love Joyce in that way.” To which I said, “But you do love her and you could live a nice life. But, would it compare to your life with Dad?” She said “no.” Then I asked if the difference in a life with Joyce and a life with Dad was just about sexuality. Would the only difference in a relationship with Dad and a relationship with Joyce be between having sex with a man versus having sex with a woman? The answer was clearly no. That is because she is not romantically attached to her best friend. And that is what human beings need to be healthy. All of us. Romantic attachment. It’s one of the main purposes of life!
I really like what she says here, and I wish the GAs could understand it. It isn’t about the sex. It is about who you love. It took seeing my daughter first with a husband and now with her wife for me to get it. Being lesbian, they kind of learned to avoid any PDA and because spouse man is still TBM and at first felt he had to tell them he disapproved, so for years they didn’t show any affection to each other in front of us, but now they have relaxed and can be just as mushy in front of us as their straight siblings. Well actually, of all our kids, they are the most openly romantic and mushy with each other. That was missing in her marriage to her husband.

And being in a mixed orientation marriage can really damage the self worth of the straight partner. Because their husband is not attracted, they feel that they are unattractive. I saw this in my SIL whose first husband was gay and then divorced her after four kids.at 70, she is still a beautiful woman, but even after 30+ years married to my brother who thinks she is beautiful, she still thinks she is unattractive.

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Emower
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Re: Ed Smart comes out as gay

Post by Emower » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:24 pm

Blashyrkh wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:24 am
So let me get this straight. Ed Smart destroys his family because he likes dudes and he is the world's greatest martyr. A hero more grand than old Jesus H. Christ himself. So let's pretend Mr. Smart destroyed his family by sleeping with the Relief Society President. My guess is that you would all say that he would be the biggest dirtbag ever.
I ordinarily enjoy your perspective here, except for this one.
1. Who said his family is destroyed? Maybe they are strengthened by him finally being able to be who he is. Point is, none of us actually know.
2. Assume his family is "destroyed," is it because he likes dudes or because the church he grew up in pressured him to be something he isnt and told him that life and his family would be hunky dory and he fainlly realized that that pile was actually bullsh!t?
3. Who said he has slept with anybody? Or is that an assumption you are making, that he has gone out, had a wild gay experience, then decided he wanted more of that?
4.
Good Lord Please Sweet Meteor of Death hasten your eliptical journey and speed your impact upon this orb of misery.

WTF?

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