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Encouraging words
Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:56 pm
by Mackman
For those of us who still believe in mainstream Christianity " You can be mormon and be saved, but it wont be the mormonism that saves you". Unknown Baptist minister. Thoughts ?
Re: Encouraging words
Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:06 pm
by jfro18
To me, from a "mainstream Christian" viewpoint I believe that to be true.
I don't believe that following the Mormon church is going to condemn you to hell... sure they have false prophets, but I don't believe it makes any sense in the grand scheme of the atonement to punish those who were good, honest people that were fooled by a church that they thought made their lives better.
So being a part of Mormonism won't be what saves them, but just being a good person will.
That's my thoughts anyway.
Re: Encouraging words
Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:44 pm
by slavereeno
jfro18 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:06 pm
To me, from a "mainstream Christian" viewpoint I believe that to be true.
I don't believe that following the Mormon church is going to condemn you to hell... sure they have false prophets, but I don't believe it makes any sense in the grand scheme of the atonement to punish those who were good, honest people that were fooled by a church that they thought made their lives better.
So being a part of Mormonism won't be what saves them, but just being a good person will.
+1
Re: Encouraging words
Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:59 pm
by alas
I have heard this thought before, and even discussed it with a born again. She stated that there are Mormons like me who believe Christ is our Savior, and we don’t believe the Mormon temple ceremony is necessary for salvation. (She knew I wasn’t orthodox, but not how totally apostate, but I had told her before that I just don’t think God requires any kind of ordinance, even baptism, which she must not have comprehended that I don’t even believe baptism is necessary, but whatever) but she thought that to be saved a Mormon had to be Christian, but not really, as she put it, “believe certain parts of Mormonism.” In other words, she didn’t believe except in theory that a true orthodox Mormon could be saved because they believe that certain ordinances are necessary. But if a Mormon believed like she did, that we are saved by grace, without any “after all that we can do” then sure that Mormon could be saved. In other words, if the Mormon was really a born again....
Re: Encouraging words
Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:31 pm
by Mackman
Ah yes Alas we are on the same page as far as beliefs go. I have been reading the New Testament very carefully and do not believe we even need baptism. We are saved by grace alone !!! I really get tired though of hearing constantly that the LDS church is "The one true church on the face of the earth". By stating that they really become antagonistic toward any other religious group. I cannot endorse that, that is not what Christ taught and yes I am only there for my wife, if she would leave I would leave in a minute !!!! I am a total apostate!!!!! Born again or whatever as well !!
Re: Encouraging words
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:18 pm
by deacon blues
I believe God loves us more than we can understand, and is powerful enough to save us if want to be saved.
Re: Encouraging words
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:24 pm
by Palerider
deacon blues wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:18 pm
I believe God loves us more than we can understand, and is powerful enough to save us if want to be saved.
+1
Re: Encouraging words
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:38 pm
by Palerider
It seems to me that the real problem here is that the Mormons are the ones who are saying you can't be "exalted" without their extra special, superduper authorized ordinances.
The Baptist minister is actually being quite generous in light of the Mormon doctrine that declares he and his kind will not receive a place in the celestial penthouse suite with Joseph Smith and the Savior.
Re: Encouraging words
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:40 pm
by Keewon
Speaking from the POV my erstwhile very Christ-oriented faith, I don't find it at all hard to believe that a Mormon could be saved. If you take King Benjamin's and Abinadi's words seriously, it's Christ who does the saving, and he is more than up to the task. If he's written his name in a person's heart, he knows that person, and the person (even unbeknownst to them) know and will recognize him. His sheep hear his voice, whatever their doctrinal beliefs might have been. And as for the confusion of words and competing beliefs, he's the light that shines in darkness, a light that the darkness doesn't comprehend.
If such a being exists (and I'm all for such a being existing) I'd have no problem believing that he is more clever than our heads, and even our cultures. I can envision a 12-dimensional game of chess going on with the devil, and Christ outsmarting the devil at every turn, like the martial artist who uses his opponent's own strengths against him, or the chess grandmaster able to lose everything down to the last piece and still pull out an amazing win.
What's more, when I use this argument with Christian friends, I find they have no trouble believing me.
So I guess that's a "yes".
Re: Encouraging words
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:00 pm
by Emower
You lost me at "mainstream Christianity"
Re: Encouraging words
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:28 pm
by Keewon
So I guess that's a "yes".
Just to clarify, if I am honest with myself I have to say that my journey has left me a very unwilling atheist. I find the Christian story of the fall and redemption of mankind, of Christ the light of the world, extremely emotionally compelling. It was the thing I clung to on my LDS mission. When I stopped believing in modern day prophets, angels and gold plates, I found that was a small loss to endure compared to the gradual loss of my belief in God. I well remember once walking the streets alone, tears running down my face, begging God to exist.
My remaining prayer until the present time has always been "If you're there, please come find me." A Christian friend once told me that my offering that prayer was evidence that I was already found. As CS Lewis' character Aslan said in one of the Narnia books, "you wouldn't have called to me if I hadn't called you first".
I wish it were that easy. Science seems to rule out so much of the Christian story of mankind- Adam and Even, the fall of man, the Flood, human cognition as requiring more than just a physical nervous system, and on and on. The same kind of shenanigans that LDS apologists go through to make modern day prophets respectable, Christian apologists use to make Christian doctrine scientifically palatable. Or so it seems.
Once you start pulling on the thread of faith, it never stops until the whole thing lies in a heap at your feet. It's not an endeavor to undertake lightly.
I must say, it's strange but fun to be making comments here on NOM again.
Re: Encouraging words
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:12 pm
by Palerider
Keewon wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:28 pm
So I guess that's a "yes".
Just to clarify, if I am honest with myself I have to say that my journey has left me a very unwilling atheist. I find the Christian story of the fall and redemption of mankind, of Christ the light of the world, extremely emotionally compelling. It was the thing I clung to on my LDS mission. When I stopped believing in modern day prophets, angels and gold plates, I found that was a small loss to endure compared to the gradual loss of my belief in God. I well remember once walking the streets alone, tears running down my face, begging God to exist.
My remaining prayer until the present time has always been "If you're there, please come find me." A Christian friend once told me that my offering that prayer was evidence that I was already found. As CS Lewis' character Aslan said in one of the Narnia books, "you wouldn't have called to me if I hadn't called you first".
I wish it were that easy. Science seems to rule out so much of the Christian story of mankind- Adam and Even, the fall of man, the Flood, human cognition as requiring more than just a physical nervous system, and on and on. The same kind of shenanigans that LDS apologists go through to make modern day prophets respectable, Christian apologists use to make Christian doctrine scientifically palatable. Or so it seems.
Once you start pulling on the thread of faith, it never stops until the whole thing lies in a heap at your feet. It's not an endeavor to undertake lightly.
I must say, it's strange but fun to be making comments here on NOM again.
Kewon I believe He's there. I know Biblical religion isn't perfect but neither is science and for some reason I just keep getting the feeling that I don't need to worry about it. Things are going to work out.
I know that probably sounds like the Mormon response to church criticism but speaking logically, at least there really is and was a Jerusalem as opposed to the fictional Zarahemla, if you catch my drift.
Re: Encouraging words
Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:04 pm
by Keewon
Palerider, I'm totally fine with your belief.
If there's one thing I'm pretty sure of, it's that human knowledge is flawed and incomplete enough that there are many questions to which the best and really only justifiable answer is "I don't know".
My loss of faith has always felt like the loss of my best friend, only worse- this friendship was supposed to endure past death. I've had dreams where I dreamt I rediscovered my faith, only to wake up later and feel inexpressible disappointment. It would be hard to explain to someone raised atheist. So as I said earlier, whenever I pray (and I do still pray) the prayer ends with "If you're there, please come find me". Pretty sad, eh?
Anyways, all my best to you (and everyone here) on your personal life journey.
Re: Encouraging words
Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:52 pm
by Emower
I appreciate the supportive words. I really like the phrase Keewon used about pulling on the thread of faith. I also felt a deep loss as I looked ahead at the tapestry that was unraveling, looking for a place where something would stop the unraveling. I didnt see such a place. Some people would have stopped pulling at that point, but I just kept going. My philosophy is basically that I did everything I could, consistent with the faith I had. If that wasn't enough, it is not something I could have changed. If that is enough, then I am straight with the big man and he knows where to find me. If there is no Big Man, none of it matters anyway.