Good Discussion with TBM Family with some Fallout

[Linked]

I had my side of the family over for a get-together on Sunday. The kids found games to play and the adults milled around chatting. My TBM SIL approached me and seemed to want to talk about her relationship with a "straying" daughter with me - someone else who had "strayed". My SIL is very TBM, but also very committed to having a good relationship with her daughter regardless of beliefs. I was intentionally loud enough for others to hear, and the rest of adults there seemed to be listening to us rather than having their own discussions. Some points discussed:

- How can SIL show her daughter she loves her but doesn't approve of some of her choices? Some recent text conversations have been derailed due to SIL not approving of certain sabbath-breaking activities and a tattoo. I wasn't really sure what to say here, so I said everything. Daughter knows SIL's beliefs, so telling her is unnecessary. If you can talk about it in a way that is less condemning she may open up about what she thinks.

- Worth vs. worthiness. SIL pushed that these are separate things, that telling a person that they aren't worthy doesn't diminish their worth. It's cool she thinks that, but it seems silly to me. I told here that worth is in the word worthiness, it literally means the amount of worth. On the other hand, what the church means by worthiness in my experience isn't strongly related to worth.

- How to have a meaningful relationship with someone who believes/acts differently than you. I told her my experience with my parents (while my parents listened) and that we talked about beliefs a bit at the beginning but both sides made it clear our relationship was important. Eventually we stopped talking about beliefs. It is a wedge between us that will likely never go away, but our relationship can survive it. I talked about not trying to solve the problem but rather to manage the paradox. My dad actually started clapping after one of my comments (he's a weird dude), which was validating, but I didn't want SIL to feel bad.

It was awesome to have this discussion. It was nice that most of my family was there to hear it. I felt closer to my family than I have in a while, like the wedge between us got a little smaller by discussing it. Unfortunately about 30 minutes in when I looked over at DW she was crying openly while talking with my sister. My sister had asked her how she felt about the things I was saying, and DW broke down about how it's really hard but this is her life now. My good feelings disappeared instantly, replaced with a mix of guilt and frustration that DW not only won't allow these discussions with DW, but that she couldn't even let me connect with my family without guilt. I felt bad, SIL felt bad, and my sister felt bad. Discussion over.

I just have to continue to manage the paradox I guess...

[Red Ryder]

Isn’t it crazy when “the Apostate” is the only rational person in the room?

The church doesn’t prepare people to think through rational things when it comes to straying from the prescribed Covenant Path.

Has the wife brought up your conversation and explained her tears?

[Anon70]

My dad's side of the fam was TBM/LDS and my mom's was all kinds of religions. I think that helped me with boundaries. My mom's family did not discuss people's worth or their opinions on someone else's choices. The irony was that the Mormons believed in agency but judged everyone.

I hope your wife starts to see that the Mormons don't practice what they preach and the non-mormon way can be much more inclusive and about relationship over judgment.

Sorry she cried, hope it turns out to be a starting point for a good conversation on contrasts.

[Linked]

Thanks for the support!

Has the wife brought up your conversation and explained her tears?

She hasn't brought it up and I've learned not to ask. Whenever she confronts the reality our situation she cries. This life sucks for her, her beliefs are pressured constantly by the person closest to her even if all he is doing is breathing. Her only way out is divorce or one of our deaths and those options are worse than staying with me. Her coping mechanism is to ignore it as much as possible. A deep connection with me destroys that coping mechanism. And she's never been one to like connecting emotionally; she makes fun of text messages between me and others close to me where we are relationship building ("thanks for coming, that was fun, we should do it again soon").

She hasn't seemed any more down on life this week, so I don't think anything has changed for the worse, so that's good.

I hope your wife starts to see that the Mormons don't practice what they preach and the non-mormon way can be much more inclusive and about relationship over judgment.

Sorry she cried, hope it turns out to be a starting point for a good conversation on contrasts.

Similar to my comments above, I am not expecting much to change, but hopefully I am surprised. She believes mormonism is not exclusive and gets really frustrated if I point out that it is, like I'm being unfair (I am incapable of being fair about the mormon church, but I try). Maybe she will come around some time. Until then, my forecast is more tears for her and being locked in an emotional box for me.

[Emower]

I'm sorry Linked. I really wish there were some words of wisdom that could make it all better.

Does she have any kind of support group? There is a group on Facebook that my wife is a part of. It is a support group for spouses of people who have left the church. It is heavily secured, I think the mods are very careful that nobodies spouse can gain access to the group, either directly or indirectly. DW tells me there is a good mix of spouses who are trying to be faithful, and some who have lost faith but still stick around and offer support. I think it has been helpful for her to have an outlet similar to how this one is for me.

[Palerider]

I saw this quote today. It wasn't an article concerning "religion". More about human behavior.

"When your beliefs are entwined with your identity, changing your mind means changing your identity. That’s a really hard sell."

I'm working on a way to approach TBMs that is less threatening. Something that actually allows the mind to open the door rather than to close it. One that actually affirms where they are in life instead of calling into question their judgement.
One of the biggest problems with Mormonism is the idea of leaving the tribe or the comfort of the community. What can be offered as a replacement community that is a happy place to be?

This may be one of the reasons a jump straight from Mormonism to Atheism is so terrifying to a TBM. And the church uses this leverage a lot. They ask (almost as a scary threat) "Where will you go?"

Big psychological hurtle.

I'm still working on it....

[Wonderment]

My sister had asked her how she felt about the things I was saying, and DW broke down about how it's really hard but this is her life now. My good feelings disappeared instantly, replaced with a mix of guilt and frustration that DW not only won't allow these discussions with DW, but that she couldn't even let me connect with my family without guilt. I felt bad, SIL felt bad, and my sister felt bad. Discussion over.

This seems manipulative and very unnecessary. She's trapped and cannot do anything about it, but his is her life now, so she will show the entire gathering how trapped and persecuted she is?

What if you, Linked, broke down in public whenever she talked about how devoted she was to the church, and you wept to any relative who would listen, about how traumatized you were by a TBM, but you are a helpless victim because this is your life now?

Is she trying to get people to pity her because she wants to be seen as a martyr? You had a mostly productive discussion with your SIL, and DW sabotaged by breaking down and crying as a way to guilt and shame you about speaking your mind? What was the reaction of the rest of the gathering? I would imagine that the topic of conversation was changed pretty quickly, in order to appease DW.

[Palerider]

This seems manipulative and very unnecessary. She's trapped and cannot do anything about it, but his is her life now, so she will show the entire gathering how trapped and persecuted she is?

What if you, Linked, broke down in public whenever she talked about how devoted she was to the church, and you wept to any relative who would listen, about how traumatized you were by a TBM, but you are a helpless victim because this is your life now?

Is she trying to get people to pity her because she wants to be seen as a martyr? You had a mostly productive discussion with your SIL, and DW sabotaged by breaking down and crying as a way to guilt and shame you about speaking your mind? What was the reaction of the rest of the gathering? I would imagine that the topic of conversation was changed pretty quickly, in order to appease DW.

Linked's DW probably doesn't even realize she's being....shall we say a little selfish and self pitying? She should be following Monson's council in having an "attitude of gratitude" because she's married to a great guy who probably by all measurements is a good husband.

But Mormonism is stuck on perfectionism. Thus, it creates dissatisfaction and self pity by its "worthiness" structure. It's too bad Linked can't get an independent party to point out to DW how blessed she is in having an honest, committed, loving husband.

Her life could be much, much worse....

[jfro18]

So sorry to hear about the fallout from what sounded like a truly constructive conversation otherwise.

This church puts this all or nothing context into their members' heads every Sunday, so it's not surprising that this is a response given, but man it is tough to hear about so often.

Hope that it blows over with DW and hopefully you made progress with your family that can actually be built upon - that would be a great thing for sure!

[alas]

This seems manipulative and very unnecessary. She's trapped and cannot do anything about it, but his is her life now, so she will show the entire gathering how trapped and persecuted she is?

What if you, Linked, broke down in public whenever she talked about how devoted she was to the church, and you wept to any relative who would listen, about how traumatized you were by a TBM, but you are a helpless victim because this is your life now?

Is she trying to get people to pity her because she wants to be seen as a martyr? You had a mostly productive discussion with your SIL, and DW sabotaged by breaking down and crying as a way to guilt and shame you about speaking your mind? What was the reaction of the rest of the gathering? I would imagine that the topic of conversation was changed pretty quickly, in order to appease DW.

Linked's DW probably doesn't even realize she's being....shall we say a little selfish and self pitying? She should be following Monson's council in having an "attitude of gratitude" because she's married to a great guy who probably by all measurements is a good husband.

But Mormonism is stuck on perfectionism. Thus, it creates dissatisfaction and self pity by its "worthiness" structure. It's too bad Linked can't get an independent party to point out to DW how blessed she is in having an honest, committed, loving husband.

Her life could be much, much worse....

I thought about pointing out how she manipulated the situation to make people feel sorry for her and make the horrible apostate look like an ogre but then decided she probably isn’t doing it knowingly on purpose. She probably honestly does feel like a martyr and feel full of self pity.

So, the rest of this is “apply it to yourself if it fits and ignore it if it doesn’t” and isn’t just for linked and although I kind of address it to the guys, there is a lot of overlap for the gals.

So, from her point of view Linked broke his marriage vows because of the way Mormon girls are taught to marry a RM in the temple and your fairy tale will come true and you will live happily ever after. It is like the temple marriage promises happily ever after, and to deviate from the script s to break the promise. Nobody ever suggests in YW lessons that Prince Charming might turn into a frog. Or that you have to work toward a good marriage, or heaven forbid you have to try to understand the other person’s point of view. Nope, the only thing they are taught is temple marriage and happily ever after. So, her Prince Charming turned into a frog and she is completely lost in an upside down world. Her religion lied to her, but it also taught her that if there is something wrong in the fairy tale, it is all her fault. But she can’t see what she did wrong, and so she has no idea how to fix it.

But the church does teach a cure. Stay very very faithful to the church and keep loving your family member and your wayward family member will see the error of his/her ways and repent and turn back into Prince Charming. This shouldn’t take more than a year or two. You know, kiss the frog and keep believing in fairy tales.

Meanwhile, too often the frog keeps trying to push her into the muddy pond by trying to destroy her faith. Because the frog thinks if she could just see the world from the perspective of the pond, she would happily join him. But if you actually do get her pushed into the pond, she will close her eyes to keep out the mud and climb out of the pond and hate you.

The better method is to lure her into the pond. Make it look safe and like a happy place. Be a sweet charming frog. Love her just the way she is.

If you are having trouble loving her just the way she is, you have to decide if saving the marriage is worth it, because if you stay on the fence, and just endure a bad marriage, you get years and years of misery. If you don’t think the marriage is worth Lots and lots of work, divorce now. If you want to give saving the marriage a try, you have lots of options. Marriage counseling is one. If the spouse thinks YOU have to change and refuses counseling you can still go. As you change it will force your spouse to change and adapt or get out of the marriage. Or, get yourself some self help books on improving marriage. Leave them sitting around. When you learn something useful about communication skills, apply it. Try discussing what you read, but be non threatening about it, not like you are trying to make her change. Just like you have discovered a mistake you have been making. Leave the books sitting around and she might get curious and pick one up. Don’t try to make her change. Work on changing how you interact with her. As you change how you act, she has to respond differently because the pattern changed. It isn’t just the same old fight.

[Wonderment]

Her coping mechanism is to ignore it as much as possible. A deep connection with me destroys that coping mechanism. And she's never been one to like connecting emotionally; she makes fun of text messages between me and others close to me where we are relationship building ("thanks for coming, that was fun, we should do it again soon").

So, as I read it here, the person who is trying to maintain the family connection regardless of beliefs - is Linked. He points out to his parents and to his SIL, that the bond between them is of higher value than any difference in religious beliefs.

But his wife is the one who is belittling the text messages celebrating the bonds of the family and belittling the appreciation for family togetherness.
( What kind of TBM temple-married wife does that when thousands of times church officials have proclaimed, "It's all about the family" ?)

She's never been one to like connecting emotionally. According to him, she feels that emotional connections with apostates is a threat to her belief system. And, I think this is why she cries, whether she is aware of it or not. She sees those connections being strengthened, and it angers her or frightens her. She may not be doing that on purpose, but her behavior immediately derails or sabotages a productive dialog -- even if she lacks self-awareness.

As a younger person, I had some intense conversations with intransigent family members who believed that I was on the road to apostasy. But never, never, did a family member create the contention and derailment of completely shutting down a discussion by crying. What kind of a TBM wife creates passive-aggressive contention and sabotage? That's not at all what devout wives do -- and she claims that she is a devout wife. Wives are supposed to be the peacemakers in the family, according to the church.

So, the wife created the contention here --- not Linked. He's the one trying to maintain family harmony, and she's the one shutting it down. - Wndr.

[Wonderment]

Her coping mechanism is to ignore it as much as possible. A deep connection with me destroys that coping mechanism. And she's never been one to like connecting emotionally; she makes fun of text messages between me and others close to me where we are relationship building ("thanks for coming, that was fun, we should do it again soon").

To add: I think this kind of mocking, demeaning behavior should be addressed. I think she does this to shame you and belittle you, which is completely unnecessary. Perhaps you could set up a mutually agreeable time to have a discussion with her about this shaming behavior and explain that you feel it is rude and unnecessary, and that you would not do this to her. Advise her in a loving and civil manner that maybe she never noticed before what she is doing by making fun of these texts, but that you would like it to stop and are setting a boundary.

No one needs to put up with this belittling, demeaning behavior. I hope you both can work this out. Best wishes to you, from Wndr.

[Linked]

Wonderment, thank you for giving my inner frustrated self a voice. The things you have mentioned bounce around my head and I try to ignore them so DW and I can continue with less friction. But you absolutely nailed my thoughts after this incident.

My sister had asked her how she felt about the things I was saying, and DW broke down about how it's really hard but this is her life now. My good feelings disappeared instantly, replaced with a mix of guilt and frustration that DW not only won't allow these discussions with DW, but that she couldn't even let me connect with my family without guilt. I felt bad, SIL felt bad, and my sister felt bad. Discussion over.

This seems manipulative and very unnecessary. She's trapped and cannot do anything about it, but his is her life now, so she will show the entire gathering how trapped and persecuted she is?

What if you, Linked, broke down in public whenever she talked about how devoted she was to the church, and you wept to any relative who would listen, about how traumatized you were by a TBM, but you are a helpless victim because this is your life now?

Is she trying to get people to pity her because she wants to be seen as a martyr? You had a mostly productive discussion with your SIL, and DW sabotaged by breaking down and crying as a way to guilt and shame you about speaking your mind? What was the reaction of the rest of the gathering? I would imagine that the topic of conversation was changed pretty quickly, in order to appease DW.

She killed the discussion with her tears. And everyone felt bad. And it would be a great way to manipulate me and my family. But I don't think it was intentional; having a breakdown in front of anyone but me is a nightmare scenario for her. But even without intent, the results are the same.

What if you, Linked, broke down in public whenever she talked about how devoted she was to the church, and you wept to any relative who would listen, about how traumatized you were by a TBM, but you are a helpless victim because this is your life now?

That's what NOM is for!

Her coping mechanism is to ignore it as much as possible. A deep connection with me destroys that coping mechanism. And she's never been one to like connecting emotionally; she makes fun of text messages between me and others close to me where we are relationship building ("thanks for coming, that was fun, we should do it again soon").

So, as I read it here, the person who is trying to maintain the family connection regardless of beliefs - is Linked. He points out to his parents and to his SIL, that the bond between them is of higher value than any difference in religious beliefs.

But his wife is the one who is belittling the text messages celebrating the bonds of the family and belittling the appreciation for family togetherness.
( What kind of TBM temple-married wife does that when thousands of times church officials have proclaimed, "It's all about the family" ?)

She's never been one to like connecting emotionally. According to him, she feels that emotional connections with apostates is a threat to her belief system. And, I think this is why she cries, whether she is aware of it or not. She sees those connections being strengthened, and it angers her or frightens her. She may not be doing that on purpose, but her behavior immediately derails or sabotages a productive dialog -- even if she lacks self-awareness.

As a younger person, I had some intense conversations with intransigent family members who believed that I was on the road to apostasy. But never, never, did a family member create the contention and derailment of completely shutting down a discussion by crying. What kind of a TBM wife creates passive-aggressive contention and sabotage? That's not at all what devout wives do -- and she claims that she is a devout wife. Wives are supposed to be the peacemakers in the family, according to the church.

So, the wife created the contention here --- not Linked. He's the one trying to maintain family harmony, and she's the one shutting it down. - Wndr.

Much of our marriage friction has been due to my need for connection and her need to be disconnected. Early on in our marriage she felt abandoned because I would still spend some time with my family and friends. I thought she would be integrated into those social circles, but it never happened, she always felt like the odd woman out. Naturally, she didn't like feeling like the odd woman out so she would not want to come, but she didn't want to be the naggy wife who told her husband he couldn't do stuff so she told me I could go. Then she was sad/mad that I didn't want to be with her. And I could feel her anger and I didn't like being around someone who was angry with me and it was a negative spiral.

That dynamic has been a wedge in our marriage almost since the beginning. I guess what I'm trying to say is that her natural state is to dislike connection. She gave me a chance early in our marriage, but it didn't go great, so she distanced herself from me. Now the church stuff confirms and reinforces her disconnection. (We make efforts to connect. I bought an RV because she loves camping and we go and that's pretty fun. We both suggest shows to watch together. She makes me lunch and sometimes puts generically thoughtful notes in there.)

She may resent my connection with others. But she offers no replacement for it. I dragged her to several sessions of couples therapy and it was more of a negative than a positive for our relationship so I stopped pushing it. She hated therapy.

There is a point of interest in Dinosaur National Monument near Vernal, UT called Josie's Cabin. She divorced in her early 40's after her kids had grown and homesteaded in what is now Dinosaur National Monument. She built herself a cabin and farmed and lived alone far from others for over 50 years. I sometimes wonder if DW wants to do that.

As for her being the peacemaker, she comes from a very quiet home. My family is loud, even when things are going well. So she may mistake the loudness for a lack of peace between us.

Her coping mechanism is to ignore it as much as possible. A deep connection with me destroys that coping mechanism. And she's never been one to like connecting emotionally; she makes fun of text messages between me and others close to me where we are relationship building ("thanks for coming, that was fun, we should do it again soon").

To add: I think this kind of mocking, demeaning behavior should be addressed. I think she does this to shame you and belittle you, which is completely unnecessary. Perhaps you could set up a mutually agreeable time to have a discussion with her about this shaming behavior and explain that you feel it is rude and unnecessary, and that you would not do this to her. Advise her in a loving and civil manner that maybe she never noticed before what she is doing by making fun of these texts, but that you would like it to stop and are setting a boundary.

No one needs to put up with this belittling, demeaning behavior. I hope you both can work this out. Best wishes to you, from Wndr.

I think you are right. I've tried to be more direct about it being an issue when she does it lately. I screwed up early on when she first mentioned it because I hadn't thought about it. So she laughed at how I would get texts after doing stuff with family or friends and I thought that was kinda funny/needy of me or them so I laughed with her. It took me a while to realize that those texts are part of the connective glue between me and those I care about.

[Linked]

Has the wife brought up your conversation and explained her tears?

She hasn't brought it up and I've learned not to ask. Whenever she confronts the reality our situation she cries. This life sucks for her, her beliefs are pressured constantly by the person closest to her even if all he is doing is breathing. Her only way out is divorce or one of our deaths and those options are worse than staying with me. Her coping mechanism is to ignore it as much as possible. A deep connection with me destroys that coping mechanism. And she's never been one to like connecting emotionally; she makes fun of text messages between me and others close to me where we are relationship building ("thanks for coming, that was fun, we should do it again soon").

She hasn't seemed any more down on life this week, so I don't think anything has changed for the worse, so that's good.

Your comment stewed for a little while and so I asked DW if she wanted to talk about it.

She said not really. Just that me and my Sis-in-Law were talking about that stuff for so long, and then my sister asked her and tears are what came out. Things are tough.

[Linked]

This seems manipulative and very unnecessary. She's trapped and cannot do anything about it, but his is her life now, so she will show the entire gathering how trapped and persecuted she is?

What if you, Linked, broke down in public whenever she talked about how devoted she was to the church, and you wept to any relative who would listen, about how traumatized you were by a TBM, but you are a helpless victim because this is your life now?

Is she trying to get people to pity her because she wants to be seen as a martyr? You had a mostly productive discussion with your SIL, and DW sabotaged by breaking down and crying as a way to guilt and shame you about speaking your mind? What was the reaction of the rest of the gathering? I would imagine that the topic of conversation was changed pretty quickly, in order to appease DW.

Linked's DW probably doesn't even realize she's being....shall we say a little selfish and self pitying? She should be following Monson's council in having an "attitude of gratitude" because she's married to a great guy who probably by all measurements is a good husband.

But Mormonism is stuck on perfectionism. Thus, it creates dissatisfaction and self pity by its "worthiness" structure. It's too bad Linked can't get an independent party to point out to DW how blessed she is in having an honest, committed, loving husband.

Her life could be much, much worse....

I thought about pointing out how she manipulated the situation to make people feel sorry for her and make the horrible apostate look like an ogre but then decided she probably isn’t doing it knowingly on purpose. She probably honestly does feel like a martyr and feel full of self pity.

So, the rest of this is “apply it to yourself if it fits and ignore it if it doesn’t” and isn’t just for linked and although I kind of address it to the guys, there is a lot of overlap for the gals.

So, from her point of view Linked broke his marriage vows because of the way Mormon girls are taught to marry a RM in the temple and your fairy tale will come true and you will live happily ever after. It is like the temple marriage promises happily ever after, and to deviate from the script s to break the promise. Nobody ever suggests in YW lessons that Prince Charming might turn into a frog. Or that you have to work toward a good marriage, or heaven forbid you have to try to understand the other person’s point of view. Nope, the only thing they are taught is temple marriage and happily ever after. So, her Prince Charming turned into a frog and she is completely lost in an upside down world. Her religion lied to her, but it also taught her that if there is something wrong in the fairy tale, it is all her fault. But she can’t see what she did wrong, and so she has no idea how to fix it.

But the church does teach a cure. Stay very very faithful to the church and keep loving your family member and your wayward family member will see the error of his/her ways and repent and turn back into Prince Charming. This shouldn’t take more than a year or two. You know, kiss the frog and keep believing in fairy tales.

Meanwhile, too often the frog keeps trying to push her into the muddy pond by trying to destroy her faith. Because the frog thinks if she could just see the world from the perspective of the pond, she would happily join him. But if you actually do get her pushed into the pond, she will close her eyes to keep out the mud and climb out of the pond and hate you.

The better method is to lure her into the pond. Make it look safe and like a happy place. Be a sweet charming frog. Love her just the way she is.

If you are having trouble loving her just the way she is, you have to decide if saving the marriage is worth it, because if you stay on the fence, and just endure a bad marriage, you get years and years of misery. If you don’t think the marriage is worth Lots and lots of work, divorce now. If you want to give saving the marriage a try, you have lots of options. Marriage counseling is one. If the spouse thinks YOU have to change and refuses counseling you can still go. As you change it will force your spouse to change and adapt or get out of the marriage. Or, get yourself some self help books on improving marriage. Leave them sitting around. When you learn something useful about communication skills, apply it. Try discussing what you read, but be non threatening about it, not like you are trying to make her change. Just like you have discovered a mistake you have been making. Leave the books sitting around and she might get curious and pick one up. Don’t try to make her change. Work on changing how you interact with her. As you change how you act, she has to respond differently because the pattern changed. It isn’t just the same old fight.

Thanks for the advice. The church creates the problem then sells a cure of more church. It's diabolically genius.

I think there is another layer to the YW view of marriage that comes into play in many cases too. They teach YW to marry an RM in the temple, then happily ever after. But there is no happily ever after, it just doesn't exist. It's confusing and the wife doesn't know why the happily ever after she was taught about isn't working out for her. She tries to figure out why. She tries to be more devout herself. And anything outside of devotion to the mormon church from her DH is also blamed for the missing happily ever after. He watches R-rated movies? Maybe that's the issue. He is always wanting sex, that can't be right. So now she's got animosity toward her DH and who he is. And an apostate DH is a pretty obvious reason for a missing happily ever after, and strengthens the animosity for the other behaviors she had taken issue with as moral failings.

I've tried really hard not to push her into anything (other than counseling a few times which went badly). But I don't think I can lure her anywhere, she does not think highly of me.

Can I love her just the way she is? Not without reciprocation. Which is completely lacking right now. She hasn't told me she loves me in years. If she loved me back it would be much easier. But aside from reciprocation I think there is enough common ground to make a happy, loving life together. I could be wrong though. There are some gulfs between us besides religious beliefs.

Is saving our marriage worth it? When I hold my 2 boys before bed every night I know it is worth it. DW and I don't fight much, so there's not too much negative for the kids. I would prefer they had a better example of in-love parents, but we do ok. If we had no kids we would no doubt have divorced a while ago. If there were no kids and no stigma then DW would probably have my stuff on the curb this weekend. I tried for a long time to hold out hope that there was happiness between DW and I in store if we just tried hard enough and in the right way. I would try to share my optimism with DW, but she never took it, and eventually I stopped trying. Maybe it will be rekindled someday. Our youngest is starting kindergarten and maybe the "me time" DW gets will allow her time and energy to reflect on life more. I've been planning to go to therapy to work through this stuff for myself, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.

[alas]

One big reason “happily ever after” doesn’t happen is because the church insists that being a full time mother to a house full of small children is wonderfully fulfilling. At least to women it is supposed to be so wonderful. The men know it would be awful for them, but somehow think that is all women could ever want. Then they put the men in the bishopric or elder’s quorum presidency so she isn’t just home alone all day with small children, but most evenings she is also home alone with small children. This was not how humans evolved to live. In all primitive cultures, the women share childcare, and not with sister wives either. This allows mothers adult company, breaks from constant child care. It allows someone to watch the child so she can get enough rest during the intense breast feeding three times a night phase. It allows for shared work, in primitive cultures this was often gardening or gathering fruits and vegetables. So, the men were off hunting in a social group, while the women were gathering vegetables, fruits, and nuts, usually with the smallest in a back pack. While the other children were left in camp with ten grandmas to watch them while grandmas make baskets, pottery, and clothing.

Now, mother’s are cut off from all social contact, has too much or too little to do depending on the ages of kids, and they are seldom given a break from mothering all the kids at once. Most women are unhappy with this arrangement at one point or another, but in our culture, you are a bad mother if it isn’t the most wonderful time of life.

So, about 1970 some housewife started wondering what was wrong with her that she was so unhappy and figured out she had been sold a fairy tale. She wrote a book called Feminine Mystique about this idea that women are supposed to be overjoyed to be alone with small children all day everyday. And second wave feminism started. But the church labeled the whole idea terribly evil, so they are still selling the fairy tale.

But it usually takes several years for the women to figure out the problem isn’t them and it isn’t their husband. The real problem is that no one should live isolated with small children. You take any social animal like other primates and isolate the mother with her young and she will kill them.

So, the years of small children are the worst for marriages.

So, along these lines, does your wife have a hobby? Is there something you enjoy doing together? Do you date? One of the psychologists I saw in dealing with my childhood crap said that couples need to keep wooing each other. He said he doesn’t like the word “courting” because there were aspects of old fashioned wooing that have gotten lost.

And wonderment brought up the problem that your DW mocks intimate relationships. She may be afraid to let people close, so she keeps an emotional distance. I don’t know if I agree with Wonderment that you should confront her on this. It may well blow up on you. But I do agree with her that it is not right and is very destructive.

[Red Ryder]

Ok, I know I’m not your bishop here but are you guys intimate on a regular basis?

It sounds like you are holding your marriage together for the kids.

Your church differences are masking your other issues and it seems like she knows that and is hiding behind the church. As if she wants the church to be the issue for a failed marriage then she doesn’t have to take any responsibility.

I feel your pain man.

Hopefully us NOMchair quarterbacks are giving you good things to think about.

[Linked]

One big reason “happily ever after” doesn’t happen is because the church insists that being a full time mother to a house full of small children is wonderfully fulfilling. At least to women it is supposed to be so wonderful. The men know it would be awful for them, but somehow think that is all women could ever want. Then they put the men in the bishopric or elder’s quorum presidency so she isn’t just home alone all day with small children, but most evenings she is also home alone with small children. This was not how humans evolved to live. In all primitive cultures, the women share childcare, and not with sister wives either. This allows mothers adult company, breaks from constant child care. It allows someone to watch the child so she can get enough rest during the intense breast feeding three times a night phase. It allows for shared work, in primitive cultures this was often gardening or gathering fruits and vegetables. So, the men were off hunting in a social group, while the women were gathering vegetables, fruits, and nuts, usually with the smallest in a back pack. While the other children were left in camp with ten grandmas to watch them while grandmas make baskets, pottery, and clothing.

Now, mother’s are cut off from all social contact, has too much or too little to do depending on the ages of kids, and they are seldom given a break from mothering all the kids at once. Most women are unhappy with this arrangement at one point or another, but in our culture, you are a bad mother if it isn’t the most wonderful time of life.

So, about 1970 some housewife started wondering what was wrong with her that she was so unhappy and figured out she had been sold a fairy tale. She wrote a book called Feminine Mystique about this idea that women are supposed to be overjoyed to be alone with small children all day everyday. And second wave feminism started. But the church labeled the whole idea terribly evil, so they are still selling the fairy tale.

But it usually takes several years for the women to figure out the problem isn’t them and it isn’t their husband. The real problem is that no one should live isolated with small children. You take any social animal like other primates and isolate the mother with her young and she will kill them.

So, the years of small children are the worst for marriages.

So, along these lines, does your wife have a hobby? Is there something you enjoy doing together? Do you date? One of the psychologists I saw in dealing with my childhood crap said that couples need to keep wooing each other. He said he doesn’t like the word “courting” because there were aspects of old fashioned wooing that have gotten lost.

And wonderment brought up the problem that your DW mocks intimate relationships. She may be afraid to let people close, so she keeps an emotional distance. I don’t know if I agree with Wonderment that you should confront her on this. It may well blow up on you. But I do agree with her that it is not right and is very destructive.

Good points on how hard it is to be a mother in today's society. I have always wondered why someone would want to be a SAHM, and I have tried to encourage DW to have her things, but I think she takes her perceived responsibility to always be available for the kids very seriously. She doesn't really like doing things with other young mothers in our neighborhood, nor with the young mothers on either side of our family. She does spend a fair amount of time with her mom, but DW is very careful not to put too much on grandma. She also has a hard time asking for or receiving help (except for when she doesn't, and I'm supposed to know the difference in her mood), so she often refuses to entertain my offers to take the kids off her hands unless I just do it (and I have a hard time just doing stuff, I need to talk about it a bunch first).

My wife likes to dance in a dance troop, she goes for a couple hours once a week, though she is taking a break Sept - Dec so we can do family stuff for the holidays. That's her main hobby. I think she also counts cooking and baking as a hobby. And she likes crafty stuff like making blankets, etc. Our dating game has dropped a bit lately. I used to push for regular (~twice a month) dates, but since I have given up I am just not interested enough to arrange it. So if there is some event I want to go to I will see if she's interested, and if child care can be worked out we go together. It probably ends up being about ~once a month now. But there is not much wooing on our dates, we are just together doing an activity. Occasionally there are moments while we are driving without the kids for a date where it feels like we are kind of connecting, but those talks are only about day to day and superficial stuff usually.

DW and I have discussed my need for connection and her need for isolation quite a bit, but it never goes anywhere productive. It ends up with her saying "This is Me!" (from Greatest Showman) and her feeling like I don't accept her for her; while I wonder if I can justify feeling the same way toward her.

[Linked]

Ok, I know I’m not your bishop here but are you guys intimate on a regular basis?

It sounds like you are holding your marriage together for the kids.

Your church differences are masking your other issues and it seems like she knows that and is hiding behind the church. As if she wants the church to be the issue for a failed marriage then she doesn’t have to take any responsibility.

I feel your pain man.

Hopefully us NOMchair quarterbacks are giving you good things to think about.

All of your input is very appreciated, you provide a valuable therapy service!!

We are intimate pretty regularly. After one of our more honest conversations where it was clear she was miserable with me I asked her if she wanted to just stop being intimate with me and she told me that was a stupid idea. I like it, and she seems pretty happy with it, so I have left it at that. It can be emotionally confusing though, because I am often unhappy with how she is dealing with our relationship, but I like sex.

We are definitely holding our marriage together for the kids. But we are both trying to make the best of it in our own way. We try to make the places where each of our "ways" meet work well. Things like family vacations, some tv shows, family camping trips, hopes for our kids, a love of the Cheesecake Factory.

Thanks again RR and everybody else for your comments.

[græy]

I know I'm late to this thread, but I wanted to voice my support, Linked. I wish I had more to offer besides camaraderie. This is tough.