Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Red Ryder
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:40 pm

Reading your return and report brings back a flood of memories having very similar conversations with my wife.

May I suggest one simple but critical thing to do?

You need to provide emotional follow up care. Pull her aside later tonight and give her a gentle caring hug. Tell her you appreciate the conversation and thank her for listening. Then whisper “I love you” in her ear. Then drop the mic, end the hug, go do the dishes, and let it all simmer.

Go ahead and read the BOM if needed, but it’s not going to matter. She’s an emotional Mormon and already has the end result in mind. You read it, nothing happens, and she continues to blame you for not trying hard enough. Rinse, repeat, rinse repeat, and the only way those dishes get dried is if you have a testimony after.

One last comment.

I’m 15 years post your situation. Things can and will get better but the church will always be a part of your marriage. You just have to make that part as small as possible.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

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Corsair
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by Corsair » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:01 pm

Advocate wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:01 am
So the way I see it, I have two choices:
1. Tell her I will try harder to lead the family in those things, take her to the temple, etc. OR
2. Tell her that me living a double-life obviously isn't working, and it is time I act on my beliefs and stop participating in church.
You don't have two choices. There are more options. In many ways, Red Ryder and I have taken both paths simultaneously. I also am confident that you are treating this like an inevitable fork in the road where you must make a choice on direction. You don't have an arbitrary time limit to decide. In fact, this is likely a case where taking longer to decide will end up being better for both of you. Don't try to have those conversations. You need to be discussing things that are actually important in your marriage and, hilariously, the truth claims of the LDS church are not among those topics.

Everything that Red Ryder said is an excellent idea. I would simply combine that with not trying to come to an objective decision with your wife. Simply do not treat the church like it is the most important thing in your marriage. Your relationship with your wife is more important than your relationship with the church. Your relationship with your children is more important than your relationship with the church.

Think of your wife's relationship with the church to be like a really expensive hobby. Do you play golf? I am a terrible golfer and have no interest in spending the time or money to become better. But there is nothing directly immoral about wanting to play golf. I attended the Phoenix Open with friends and we followed Phill Mickelson around. Granted, Phil did not ask us to pay tithing to him or insist that we give up all other sports in favor of One True Sport.

Your wife is a big fan of this one serious religious hobby. It's expensive at times and it is more demanding than most other hobbies. Your wife also just wants to be a Mormon and not worry about the issues. That's fine. Let her enjoy church. I still attend and hilariously hold a current temple recommend. I knew my wife did not want to be a church widow so I still attend with her. I taught Priests Quorum recently and told them none of the current First Presidency went on a mission. The young men in my ward know that they can ask me hard questions.

Also, I'm friends with some of the long time members of the Mama Dragons. I'm on the look out for that LGBT youth that needs a better direction than what an LDS lifestyle can offer. I have a couple of stories about that also.

The details about how I deal with things like tithing (don't pay), Word of Wisdom (no coffee in front of wife), and temple recommend (lie) are good topics for another day. There are worse ways to live than as a lazy Mormon. Home Teaching is largely a non-issue now and it's amusing looking around realizing that the belief framework of these people is so brittle and contrived. But I actually like these people. They just want to raise their family and serve each other. They don't care about the silliness of church history or doctrine.

Are you actually being harmed in any way when you attend church? I will grant that lots of silly and clueless things get said. A lot of lessons are boring and fail to edify in any way. Church is no longer where you will really find emotional or spiritual fulfillment. Find new ways to generate that. That's another good topic on this board.

Let me also note one thing the Red Ryder said:
Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:45 am
8. Divorce is always an option.
We are not trying to get you to divorce your wife. Really, that's not the goal. We are trying to point out how you should not treat divorce as this nightmare scenario. Don't live in fear of divorce. In a very cruel way, divorce will be a lot harder on your wife than on you. You have the job. Your wife would have the burden of living with the public social failure of a divorce in an LDS culture. Your children would know that the only reason the marriage ended was due to a difference of opinion about the church. Not infidelity or anger or abuse. It was your wife's devotion to the impossible demands of the LDS church.

Face this with courage. Simply be the best husband you can and show your wife that your goal is to support her, not the church. Attending church might be something she wants and you might even attend with a smile. But you get to be the husband that simply loves his wife and children more than he loves the church. You get to choose your family over the church. If your son decides for or against a mission, you are the supportive dad. If you children get married in or out of the temple, you remain their father. You get to emphasize teaching your children to be happy, productive adults, not simply productive Mormons. The range of happy outcomes is dramatically expanded as you have transcended the church. It's challenging, but it's also a great opportunity to have joy and rejoicing in your posterity.

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Linked
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by Linked » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:46 pm

Advocate wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:46 am
I now return and report: this sucks.

Had a 2+ hour conversation with DW last night. It wasn't fun. I was able to keep my emotions under control and she was too for the most part. A couple highlights:

- Me wanting to learn more about church history and doctrine (starting in 2012) is the same as committing adultery. How? Because, according to DW, I knew that in digging I would find issues that would lead me to question the church. This desire to know more about the church is selfish and thus the same as adultery because that is also selfish, and she is/would be the innocent victim in both.
- She knows there are lots of issues with church history, so why bother learning about them. They aren't her problem and the church is true.
- There is no reason to dig into details with the church. You go on Sunday and do what is asked because you want to be part of a good environment. If there is something that seems off/wrong, you just ignore it.
- Why did I marry her if I was going to have issues with the church? Why pick her? (pity party)
- Me going to church every week (including getting kids there too) isn't enough because she can tell that I usually don't want to be there. Not that I say that out loud, but she knows me well enough that she can read my feelings.
- Let me know that I wouldn't be able to baptize our youngest (other kids are already baptized) nor see any of our kids married in temple.

I don't understand women and am wondering if I should have just avoided the entire conversation. I'm pretty quiet and very good at keeping things to myself. It seems to me she only wanted to discuss if it was what she wanted to hear. Kind of a "do these pants make me look fat" situation.

We didn't end up agreeing on anything or getting anywhere. She didn't like the idea of being jointly responsible for come follow me. She definitely wasn't interested in studying the issues with me. We talked and talked until we weren't getting anywhere and there was nothing left to say.

Every interaction with her today has been ice-cold.

The advice about my faith crisis being an identity crisis for her was spot-on. I can see why this is such a huge thing for her. Even knowing that, I still feel like an innocent victim.

I'm thinking of reading the BOM in 30 days just to give it one last shot. A big part of me hopes that I could regain my testimony. It would make things so much easier. But part of me says that nothing will change; I've already seen that the emperor has no clothes. Not sure if I should tell DW or not. I want her to know that my faith crisis wasn't brought on as some sort of evil plan I hatched. On the other hand, I don't want her to get her hopes up too much.

Thanks to all here on NOM. I love the spirit of this board. I think having a place to vent is huge. Hopefully nobody is getting the wrong idea about DW. She really is an amazing woman and I love her more than anything.

Be interesting to see how things go tonight. This sucks.
Oh man, that is a rough one. I can really relate to the ice-cold interactions. It's awful for you right now, but the most likely outcome is that your relationship will bounce back to what it was in a day or two. I'm not very good at de-fusing my wife, so I don't have any advice on specific things to do, other than give it time and recognize this is temporary.

When DW and I have those long painful conversations it hasn't seemed to help too much. After a little while it just feels like we are throwing emotional punches, even if that's not really what is going on. I've had some success communicating the harder issues by keeping the hard discussion focused and short followed by normal interaction. Also, sometimes just being able to say what you are feeling allows you to consider it and see where it should be changed; I hope this is the case for your DW and what she said to you last night.

You may want to try the opposite of reading the BOM in 30 days. Your DW sounds like she feels like she is being tortured because of your faith change. But you still jump through all the hoops. Maybe you should stop jumping through all the hoops. Start with one, like buying a couple pair of heathen underwear and rotating them through your wardrobe; don't announce it to her but don't hide it. Skip priesthood a month later. Get more underwear. Teach Come Follow Me lessons that are about things you care about and have nothing to do with the handbook. Each action will hurt her a little initially, but then the hurt will go away and she will see that life is fine. After a year or two you are done with garments and haven't been to priesthood in 6 months.

Ok, one bit of advice for coming back together. Put your arm(s) around her and cuddle while watching tv sometime soon.

Good Luck!
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Red Ryder
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:53 am

“Linked” wrote:Ok, one bit of advice for coming back together. Put your arm(s) around her and cuddle while watching tv sometime soon.
The cow charm!

Or is it couch arm?
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Linked
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by Linked » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:26 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:53 am
“Linked” wrote:Ok, one bit of advice for coming back together. Put your arm(s) around her and cuddle while watching tv sometime soon.
The cow charm!

Or is it couch arm?
Is that the arm you are laying on and wish you could remove when trying to cuddle in bed?
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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alas
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by alas » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:57 am

Your wife KNOWS that if a person digs into church history, they will find all kinds of problems that say the church might not be what it claims, but she knows the church is true. Wow, just wow! She knows good and well the church isn’t true like it claims, but the church is still true, like it claims. I want to congratulate her on her mental gymnastics. She wins a gold medal.

OK, my sarcasm isn’t going to help you. But it really points out the difference between you and her. She doesn’t care whether or not the church is true. It is her tribe. Period. End of subject. You have been disloyal to the tribe by examining the tribal mythology. That is treachery to her personally because she is loyal to the tribe. It isn’t about truth; it is about loyalty. It helps if you can get her to understand that the real truth matters to you more than the loyalty matters to you.

It helps her understand you if you can first express to her that you are trying to understand her, and reflect back to her your understanding of her position. Then she might feel safe enough to attempt to understand you. But don’t take my word for why the church is so important to her, but get her to explain things. You could start by saying you want to understand why she feels like leaving the church is the same as adultery. Then listen. Then say, “so what I hear you saying is..... “ and put it in your own words to check that you understand correctly. Don’t attempt to explain yourself, just try to understand her. You can point out where you disagree, but do it as you feel differently, not that she is wrong.

And remember, that even when these conversations seem to go badly, some conversation is still progress.

Keewon
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by Keewon » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:31 pm

Alas wrote:Your wife KNOWS that if a person digs into church history, they will find all kinds of problems that say the church might not be what it claims, but she knows the church is true. Wow, just wow! She knows good and well the church isn’t true like it claims, but the church is still true, like it claims. I want to congratulate her on her mental gymnastics. She wins a gold medal.
As one who spent years doing such gymnastics, I feel a lot of empathy for your wife. During the years I spent as a tour guide on Temple Square, I would spend 2 hours every day writing potential answers to questions I heard on the Square. One of the answers I remember is this: When someone asked "where are the gold plates?" I would remark that Christ himself was only seen by a few people after his resurrection, people who were to be his witnesses. It was the same with the plates- God took them back, gave us eyewitnesses and the promise of a personal spiritual witness, and requires us to have faith. A pretty good apologetic response if I do say so myself. :)

Thing was, during all that time it had never once occurred to me that the Church might not actually be true. I had read several critical accounts of Church history during that time (mostly to know what to say to TS visitors) and was never troubled by any of it. It wasn't until I knew enough to formulate my own scientific prediction (a genetic relationship between Native American languages and Hebrew, during a university class on cultural linguistics), and could see that prediction fail, that the thought "the Church really might not be true" first appeared. And it changed everything. I was starting to look at the world in terms of claims and evidence. There was no going back.

Until it occurs to your DW that the Church might not be all it claims, she will be thinking you are in blind spiritual darkness and endangering all she loves and values. I empathize with both her and you. If I were a praying man I would pray for you. Whatever good vibes I have to offer I send your way. :)

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MoPag
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by MoPag » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:08 pm

Advocate wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:46 am
- Me wanting to learn more about church history and doctrine (starting in 2012) is the same as committing adultery. How? Because, according to DW, I knew that in digging I would find issues that would lead me to question the church. This desire to know more about the church is selfish and thus the same as adultery because that is also selfish, and she is/would be the innocent victim in both.
- She knows there are lots of issues with church history, so why bother learning about them. They aren't her problem and the church is true.
- There is no reason to dig into details with the church. You go on Sunday and do what is asked because you want to be part of a good environment. If there is something that seems off/wrong, you just ignore it.
- Why did I marry her if I was going to have issues with the church? Why pick her? (pity party)
- Me going to church every week (including getting kids there too) isn't enough because she can tell that I usually don't want to be there. Not that I say that out loud, but she knows me well enough that she can read my feelings.
- Let me know that I wouldn't be able to baptize our youngest (other kids are already baptized) nor see any of our kids married in temple.
Ouch!

Time to unpack some more toxic things we were taught in YW.

Toxic teaching: It's your job to make sure that you and your priesthood holder boyfriend are always worthy to go to the temple.

Toxic subtext that we all learned: It's your fault if the man in your life messes up.

Toxic teaching: As a righteous wife, it's your job to maintain the spirit in your home. It's your job to respect your husbands priesthood by giving him the opportunities to use it.

Toxic teaching: No success can compensate for failure in the home.

Toxic subtext that we all learned: You have to MAKE everyone in you family be righteous or you've failed at life.

That's why I think she is being so harsh with you. In reality, the only person she can control is herself. But she has been either directly or indirectly taught that her righteousness can control you too.

So one of the other toxic subtexts we were taught is that every marriage outside of the temple would end in disaster (or you would never be truly happy because you wouldn't be with them forever.) On the flip side, if you got married in the temple and remained faithful, everything would be fine. I kind of feel like this part of the argument:
- Why did I marry her if I was going to have issues with the church? Why pick her? (pity party)
is her trying to grapple with the fact that her life didn't turn out like she was promised it would.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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alas
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by alas » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:53 am

MoPag wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:08 pm
Advocate wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:46 am
- Me wanting to learn more about church history and doctrine (starting in 2012) is the same as committing adultery. How? Because, according to DW, I knew that in digging I would find issues that would lead me to question the church. This desire to know more about the church is selfish and thus the same as adultery because that is also selfish, and she is/would be the innocent victim in both.
- She knows there are lots of issues with church history, so why bother learning about them. They aren't her problem and the church is true.
- There is no reason to dig into details with the church. You go on Sunday and do what is asked because you want to be part of a good environment. If there is something that seems off/wrong, you just ignore it.
- Why did I marry her if I was going to have issues with the church? Why pick her? (pity party)
- Me going to church every week (including getting kids there too) isn't enough because she can tell that I usually don't want to be there. Not that I say that out loud, but she knows me well enough that she can read my feelings.
- Let me know that I wouldn't be able to baptize our youngest (other kids are already baptized) nor see any of our kids married in temple.
Ouch!

Time to unpack some more toxic things we were taught in YW.

Toxic teaching: It's your job to make sure that you and your priesthood holder boyfriend are always worthy to go to the temple.

Toxic subtext that we all learned: It's your fault if the man in your life messes up.

Toxic teaching: As a righteous wife, it's your job to maintain the spirit in your home. It's your job to respect your husbands priesthood by giving him the opportunities to use it.

Toxic teaching: No success can compensate for failure in the home.

Toxic subtext that we all learned: You have to MAKE everyone in you family be righteous or you've failed at life.

That's why I think she is being so harsh with you. In reality, the only person she can control is herself. But she has been either directly or indirectly taught that her righteousness can control you too.

So one of the other toxic subtexts we were taught is that every marriage outside of the temple would end in disaster (or you would never be truly happy because you wouldn't be with them forever.) On the flip side, if you got married in the temple and remained faithful, everything would be fine. I kind of feel like this part of the argument:
- Why did I marry her if I was going to have issues with the church? Why pick her? (pity party)
is her trying to grapple with the fact that her life didn't turn out like she was promised it would.
Yes, the fairy tale sold to Mormon girls is “Marry an RM in the temple and you will live happily ever after.” I remember so many of these toxic lessons. I knew it was crap because my parents were married in the temple and were pretty miserable with each other.

And then graduate to RS and the lessons stay toxic. They make the wife and mother to be responsible for every one else’s righteousness. If she sets the proper spirit in the home, everyone will be righteous. And if your husband doesn’t live up to his priesthood responsibilities, then encourage/for e him to. It is your responsibility.

More proof that Mormons do not really believe in free agency.

But, keep in mind when you deal with your wife that part of her blames you and part of her blames herself for this broken promise of happily ever after. How dare Prince Charming turn into the dragon that he was supposed to rescue her from.

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crossmyheart
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by crossmyheart » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:17 pm

- Why did I marry her if I was going to have issues with the church? Why pick her? (pity party)
Mopag: is her trying to grapple with the fact that her life didn't turn out like she was promised it would.
[/quote]

In addition- my TBM-ish DH and I went through another layer of grief: I was no longer worthy of the celestial kingdom. We would not be together forever. I had taken that away from him simply by leaving the church. No sinning involved, just apostasy.

It may take a while for your wife to come to grips with that as well. You have abandoned her for eternity.

The best advice has already been eloquently stated: work hard on your marriage to show you are still the same person and make efforts to have quality family (and one-on one) time to back up your words.



For the record- we are years past my shelf breaking. My DH is now much more NOMish. Neither of us have been to the temple in almost a decade and the 3 kingdoms now mean nothing to us. Take it slow- time eventually heals all wounds.

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Emower
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by Emower » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:45 pm

Sigh. This is what NOM is for, a place for you to come and share your feelings. I hope talking through things here is helpful, I will echo the support for RR's list. I have many pieces of sage advice, but a lot has been shared. What Corsair said is interesting, this is not a fork in the road. Think of this like parallel paths. My wife and I dont see eye to eye, but we both have the same hope (to be together as a family in the afterlife), and who doesnt have that hope? We had a few discussions around the fact that I dont believe in a god that would separate us if I was doing what I felt to be "right". I would suggest making sure she knows that you are putting time in on your knees, earnestly seeking direction from God himself, and you are not getting any. Or that you are getting answers that it isnt true and you should leave. Dont lie, but you really have three options when you ask God if the church is true. Option one is that the church is true. If you get that, congrats! Delete your NOM account, grab the wife and head to the temple. Option two is you getting an answer that it is wrong, and you need to leave. They can certainly argue that the answer came from Satan. This makes option 2 tricky. Option three is that you dont get any guidance, and in the absence of any guidance from above, you have to go on what you know and feel, and that doesnt include the church. Option three is also tricky, sorry! The important thing is that you demonstrate that you have tried to get that answer. For some TBMs, it becomes God's problem/fault at that point.

I spent a lot of time praying in the middle of my faith crisis. No one could say that I wasnt doing enough. One night as I was driving I got distinct impressions that God was OK with me leaving. Frankly I got a kind of powerful, almost vision kind of thing. That was the end for me. And I am not sure how much it set my DW's mind at ease, but it was hard to argue against. As I gain distance I dont think that was God, I think it was my brain reacting to stress. If she sees that you are making an effort to do things the "right way" perhaps it will ease her worries a teeny bit. She can still argue that you put yourself in a position to not hear the spirit by looking into anti materials, but this is where the essays are sometimes helpful. This brings us to RR's point to not get caught looking at porn, you become un-redeemable at that point. I would suggest not doing anything radical "sin-wise" until you gain some equilibrium.

EDIT:
By the way, Crossmyheart's post above about the three kingdoms meaning nothing is really cool. Love it.

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Mahonri Moriancumer
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by Mahonri Moriancumer » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:39 pm

Empower and others who are in your situation,

I am so sorry. I feel for you. It really sucks to be in your situation. DW and I have had several similar fruitless discussions. She is TBM. She loves the church, the prophet, the temple and everything about it. She has unquestioning faith and it works for her. I love her dearly and respect her beliefs. But we are not on the same page anymore. Two of our adult children don't attend anymore (one has resigned). She doesn't know about that yet, but would be devastated.

I still attend church every week (both hours), but I don't enjoy it. I do it for her. Some weeks it is just ok, but most of the time it is excruciatingly boring or painful to endure. The last time our temple recommends expired (about a year ago), I chose not to renew my recommend. That really hurt her. I got tears and the silent treatment for several days after that. She loves to go to the temple, and although I fully support her going, it just isn't the same with her going alone. After about a year of that, I decided to renew my recommend, even though the temple experience (especially the endowment) is extremely triggering for me and always has been. My bishop is pretty good about my lack of belief, and I was able to nuance my way through the recommend questions and went through a temple session for the first time in a few years last month. It didn't get any easier for me. At least the experience is shorter now.

My faith transition has definitely taken a toll on our marriage. When we don't talk about church, we really do pretty well together. But the Church (and the culture) is our life, so every few months some issue raises its ugly head and we are both reminded how very far apart our beliefs are now. For example, after the last General Conference, she asked what I thought of it. Without thinking, I told her that I liked some of the talks, but I didn't like President Nelson's talk very much (the sad heaven talk). I might as well have sent a javelin through her heart. I thought she must have felt something like I felt (with two of our children no longer participating at all in Church or religion), but her interpretation of that talk was entirely different than mine. She wouldn't even talk to me for several days after that.

You've been given some great advice on this forum. Just understand that DW is hurting probably just as much as you are. She is grieving a loss and may be in denial as well. I'm not one to give advice (other than don't do what I've done), but try to be the best husband and father (not as a priesthood holder, but as a human being) you can be, and try to always show love and compassion for DW.

Good luck! I really feel for you!

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Raylan Givens
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by Raylan Givens » Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:43 am

Advocate wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:46 am
- Me wanting to learn more about church history and doctrine (starting in 2012) is the same as committing adultery. How? Because, according to DW, I knew that in digging I would find issues that would lead me to question the church. This desire to know more about the church is selfish and thus the same as adultery because that is also selfish, and she is/would be the innocent victim in both.
- She knows there are lots of issues with church history, so why bother learning about them. They aren't her problem and the church is true.
- There is no reason to dig into details with the church. You go on Sunday and do what is asked because you want to be part of a good environment. If there is something that seems off/wrong, you just ignore it.
- Why did I marry her if I was going to have issues with the church? Why pick her? (pity party)
- Me going to church every week (including getting kids there too) isn't enough because she can tell that I usually don't want to be there. Not that I say that out loud, but she knows me well enough that she can read my feelings.
- Let me know that I wouldn't be able to baptize our youngest (other kids are already baptized) nor see any of our kids married in temple.
Tough to read. Lots of flashbacks to five years ago. One hard part is when a spouse brings up kids, and what it will "do to the kids." I was in the middle of adoption proceedings when I shared my feelings. DW let me know that she would have never started the adoption process of she had known my feelings. It really stung. I had to just let it roll off the back.

Just be an awesome dad and husband that you are. Hopefully it "softens the heart", or she will start to see that you have lots of compatriots and are not crazy/wicked.

Went to a karaoke bar until 1 am last night with my wife. You never know.

All the best, lots of good advice on this board.
"Ah, you know, I think you use the Bible to do whatever the hell you like" - Raylan Givens

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Newme
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by Newme » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:15 am

Good comments - a lot of good advice. I’d only add...

1) Do FHE every week. At first, we often would clash during FHE but gradually, we have all learned to focus on common beliefs (we rotate who teaches with our kids too).

2) Lead family prayer at night etc. I have changed how I pray and at first that was met with disrespect but again, gradually, we’ve developed more mutual tolerance for differences.

The point is to still lead your family in moral and spiritual ways. It won’t be as cultish, but don’t drop the ball.

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alas
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by alas » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:35 am

Newme wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:15 am
Good comments - a lot of good advice. I’d only add...

1) Do FHE every week. At first, we often would clash during FHE but gradually, we have all learned to focus on common beliefs (we rotate who teaches with our kids too).

2) Lead family prayer at night etc. I have changed how I pray and at first that was met with disrespect but again, gradually, we’ve developed more mutual tolerance for differences.

The point is to still lead your family in moral and spiritual ways. It won’t be as cultish, but don’t drop the ball.
You can teach FHE lessons on general principles rather than Mormon cult doctrine. For example, sessions on honesty, kindness, service, not judging others, do unto others, even things like when we show “love” by forcing our beliefs on others, it isn’t love. Teach NOMly home evening. Even things like understanding other religions and cultures. For example, in institute, I took a class on Comparitive American Religions. At the time, I think the book only covered Christian sects, but we as Americans need to understand Jews and Moslems, Buddhists and Taoists.

This helps your wife see that you still have moral values, even if they are not necessarily Mormon values. It helps your kids understand that a person can stop being Mormon and still love their family and that Mormon values are not the only important moral values, as well as what members and nonmembers trill have in common. It also helps your kids learn critical thinking and NOMs them just a bit. It puts a lie to the church’s teaching that when people leave the church, they become drunkards lying in a gutter, or monsters who kick puppies and drown kittens.

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Grace2Daisy
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Location: With the Love of My Life

Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by Grace2Daisy » Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:53 pm

It's hard to give anyone advise. I can only tell you my journey.

I use to post regularly on NOM, beginning with a different avatar until I was outed to my SP. I changed my login, and began posting less often. I began with NOM in either 2010, at the time I was on the HC and was teaching seminary as well. My DW was the SRP. I believe I've mentioned before, she had hit for the cycle being SRP, RP, PP, YWP. We were both temple workers. I was in four bishoprics, and a GD teacher on and off for 20 years. I tell you all this to say, we were in it up to our eyes. As many of you know, who have been around, I don't frequent NOM much anymore, just occasionally checking in.

One day at seminary I had a student ask me why there was no DNA amount Native Americans that traced back to the middle east. I told her I would do some research and get back to her. Head meet rabbit hole. . . . . I called BYU and BYUI and asked why I could not find anything that confirmed the bloodlines from the middle east. No one could answer my question. From there I came across many sites which started to put stress on my shelves. Eventually coming across the CES Letter.

As I realized the lies we had been living with for decades, and wondered how I would tell my wife. I asked of she had a moment to chat in my home office. I told her about what I had found. She was devastated, scared, and frighten as to what I was saying. I realized dropping a literal bomb on her was a mistake, after all I had been researching and gathering this information for months, and dumping on her was horrific. I gave her a hug and told her I was going to continue our journey together.

This went on for a couple of years. We moved out of state and within four weeks being in a new stake, I was again called to the HC. I accepted for my DW, but I knew I was living a life of hypocrisy. I printed a copy of the CES Letter and asked her to read it some time. To take her time and when she was ready we could discuss it. Two month went by, and she came into my office. She handed me her copy of the CES Letter and said she wanted to talk. As we discussed the various points, we cried together. As I held her she said, "No religion, especially this one, will come between me and my marriage." We both asked to be released from out callings. It took the SP three months to realize I was serious about being released.

I only relate my story as an example as to how not to break it to a spouse (dumping months of research on her), and how I eventually took a slower path. I knew I was not going to go down the path alone, but I also knew she would eventually come to the same conclusion I did, but needed to do it herself and at her own speed.

We've been married now 35 years, and we've never been happier. Four of our six children have also walked. The two that remain, one is a bishop, have their identity embedded in the Utah bubble, and may never leave. However, as with my DW, never say never.
"What is truth?" retorted Pilate. John 18:38

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Newme
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by Newme » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:59 pm

alas wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:35 am
Newme wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:15 am
Good comments - a lot of good advice. I’d only add...

1) Do FHE every week. At first, we often would clash during FHE but gradually, we have all learned to focus on common beliefs (we rotate who teaches with our kids too).

2) Lead family prayer at night etc. I have changed how I pray and at first that was met with disrespect but again, gradually, we’ve developed more mutual tolerance for differences.

The point is to still lead your family in moral and spiritual ways. It won’t be as cultish, but don’t drop the ball.
You can teach FHE lessons on general principles rather than Mormon cult doctrine. For example, sessions on honesty, kindness, service, not judging others, do unto others, even things like when we show “love” by forcing our beliefs on others, it isn’t love. Teach NOMly home evening. Even things like understanding other religions and cultures. For example, in institute, I took a class on Comparitive American Religions. At the time, I think the book only covered Christian sects, but we as Americans need to understand Jews and Moslems, Buddhists and Taoists.

This helps your wife see that you still have moral values, even if they are not necessarily Mormon values. It helps your kids understand that a person can stop being Mormon and still love their family and that Mormon values are not the only important moral values, as well as what members and nonmembers trill have in common. It also helps your kids learn critical thinking and NOMs them just a bit. It puts a lie to the church’s teaching that when people leave the church, they become drunkards lying in a gutter, or monsters who kick puppies and drown kittens.
Yeah, we usually discuss basics like being compassionate, honest etc. I’ve occasionally done some really NOM-ish FHE about independent thinking & faith stages, but I’ve included plenty of lds ga quotes to back it up, for DH.

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Advocate
Posts: 165
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by Advocate » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:41 am

I disappeared for a bit because I felt like I needed a break from the online world of mormonism (I may do another post on this subject, so I won't get into it here). I didn't want to leave everyone hanging, so I wanted to close the loop on this thread.

We are back to doing pretty good. Not much has changed from how we were before, but I am trying to be less critical. I am doing better on family prayers.

I do appreciate the advice on doing FHE and approaching church study from a NOM perspective. It is something I don't object to and even find some value in it, so I need to be better about doing it.

In true mormon fashion I was really good about reading the BOM for a couple weeks, and now I have slacked off entirely. LOL. I may continue reading it some (it doesn't bother me), but reading it didn't change anything for me.

Thanks to all for your care, concern, and advice. NOMers are the best! Having a place to vent, get feedback, and gain new insights made this argument so much easier. :)

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Feeling Forced to Choose a Path

Post by MalcolmVillager » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:42 pm

So many of us have been there. The reality is that most of us are either somewhere still stuck in the middle with family ties, or spent way too long there before an eventual exit. I am the former. DW was mad and sceptical at first. She now is nearly as non believing as I am, yet we still go, hold callings, etc... for the kids and the extended family.

We will probably eventually leave the calling having space. We may never remove records. We live in the MorCor and 70% of our connections are Mormon.

Give it time.

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