NOM

-If God is the author of Mormonism, then God is actively trying to weed out critical thinkers.

-Mormon God is training people for slavery, not Godhood.

True prophets don't bang teenagers.

I can't believe in a church that cares more about my underwear than my mental health.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:47 am

True prophets don't bang teenagers.

Right, but they do attempt to kill their kid.

“graey” wrote:I liked the 1840s style garments best, but SP said they're not approved anymore!

My mother in law still wears the bottoms that go down to her ankles. She talked them up so much that my wife and her sister bought a few pairs to try with cold weather, to wear with skirts, or whatever stupid reason.

While doing laundry one weekend, I had a fit of garment rage come over me and I grabbed a leg in each fist and just ripped them right through the crotch. I tossed them in the dryer and went on with my day.

She found them folding the clothes and couldn’t for the life of her understand how they got ripped. I offered a plausible explanation in that maybe because they were so cheaply made, they got wrapped around and caught on the agitator in the washer and ripped.

A few weeks later the 2nd pair of ankle garments “accidentally” got destroyed and she mentioned she couldn’t believe it happened again. She no longer owns any ankle lengthy Jesus jammies.

- It's all made up.

My one-liner is, "I don't think you're prepared to have this conversation with me..."

Even of it's all true we're barking up the wrong tree. We should be worshipping whoever/whatever designed Elohim's body.

Palerider wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:25 pm

My one-liner is, "I don't think you're prepared to have this conversation with me..."

That's a good one. It actually is respectful of believers while simultaneously throwing down the gauntlet. Any believer that picks it up has to thoroughly understand what they are asking for.

Palerider wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:25 pm

My one-liner is, "I don't think you're prepared to have this conversation with me..."

I have inadvertently? Accidentally? Used this one...

If it’s actually true then it should at very least be a force for good, and I’m failing to find the overarching good.

Palerider wrote:"I don't think you're prepared to have this conversation with me..."

Ouch. Zing. 'Doctor!'

TBMs run full Dunning-Kruger, thinking they see the light and you don't, that you have been lied to, etc. They think they're the ones who get it and you don't. I understand this attitude- I've been there. How to talk to someone who thinks they have a clue but don't without insulting their intelligence- it's a delicate task.

How about this:

"I've run across some things I honestly don't think you're aware of. I don't want to bring these things up if you don't already know about them-- I've seen and experienced how disruptive awareness of these things can be, both to a person's faith and family. If you learn more and want to talk, however, I'm certainly willing."

It's kind of longish I know...

Keewon wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:11 pm

Palerider wrote:"I don't think you're prepared to have this conversation with me..."

Ouch. Zing. 'Doctor!'

TBMs run full Dunning-Kruger, thinking they see the light and you don't, that you have been lied to, etc. They think they're the ones who get it and you don't. I understand this attitude- I've been there. How to talk to someone who thinks they have a clue but don't without insulting their intelligence- it's a delicate task.

How about this:

"I've run across some things I honestly don't think you're aware of. I don't want to bring these things up if you don't already know about them-- I've seen and experienced how disruptive awareness of these things can be, both to a person's faith and family. If you learn more and want to talk, however, I'm certainly willing."

It's kind of longish I know...

Right. The parameters were a "one liner".

But I think as you have very aptly pointed out, it is adaptable to the character and personality of whomever one might be speaking with. Your expansion leans toward a sincere, tender heart, who deserves a soft landing. A good choice.

My abbreviated version is geared more toward my last Stake President who was a hard-nosed lawyer by profession (who unjustly accused me of all sorts of waywardness) or my BIL who was a lifetime military man used to taking command in any situation and giving orders.

The type of people that mean well but who I describe as full of "arrogance without malice."

They make assumptions based on the culture they have learned rather than the facts that present themselves. It's one of the most difficult things people have to overcome. Making assumptions with too little information.

I've done it myself a time or two.....

Palerider wrote:My abbreviated version is geared more toward my last Stake President who was a hard-nosed lawyer by profession (who unjustly accused me of all sorts of waywardness) or my BIL who was a lifetime military man used to taking command in any situation and giving orders.

That makes sense. And the blunt-nosed, forthright types might actually respect a more blunt-nosed, forthright assessment.

Although I admit I'm just not good with one-liners. Not unless the line contains a great many "ands".

I'd still be tempted to add: "If you think you understand these issues, I'd like to hear you try to explain them the way they are heard and understood by people who think they are serious problems for the Church. Go ahead. Waiting."

You're right- for the life of me I can't get it down to one line.

I'm done with being afraid all the time

We have a flawed epistemology and a bat guano crazy end times eschatology.

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:36 pm

- I'm done giving my time and money to an organization that didn't really teach me anything more than to hate myself.

So much this. I wouldn't have realized it on day one when everything fell apart, but years later, this is it for me.

Keewon wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:22 pm

You're right- for the life of me I can't get it down to one line.

I don't think it's meant to be condensed into a bumper sticker. I'm sure someone out there could put it in a nutshell but in reality it wouldn't be me.

If someone is really interested in knowing why another feels the way they do, there's going to be some serious listening done and a fair exchange of expressed concerns.

My only request would be that the other person take the time that I have taken to actually study the issues as I have. I would provide a small starter list of books for them to read and say, in essence, " If you're really serious about talking to me, when you're done with these, get back to me. I'd love to discuss it with you."

It's my opinion that most TBMs are just looking to give you a quick fix and then declare victory over darkness. They don't truly want to see another side of the argument. I had a short discussion with one of my best friends a while back. He stated he didn't understand where I was "at" with leaving the church. We talked a little more about it and then he made the interesting statement that, "No one could ever convince him that the church wasn't true."

I didn't tell him this because there wasn't time but I wanted to say, "You're absolutely correct. Not even God will force you to believe something against your will. God will not force a person to lay aside their own prejudices and biases. A real truth seeker will look at all aspects of the issue with a FRESH EYE and come to their own conclusion. Then God, in my opinion, will confirm one way or another the truth of their decision."

Isn't this similar to what the church itself teaches?

I've heard a number of prominent church members state in devotional or conference talks that when they decided to seriously read all of the critical material on Mormonism that they began to feel very down or sad. Then they decided essentially to "repent" for feeling that way.
That's just crazy! Here their mind (which God gave them) is telling them there's a problem with something that they had always been taught and ASSUMED was perfectly wonderful and they come to the conclusion that it's THEIR FAULT! Because they've been taught all their lives that it's impossible for it to be the church's fault. How's that for circular logic? There's only one way to deal with cognitive dissonance....... Blame yourself.

Sorry.....I guess I got on a rant there.... I'll stop.

I’ll share one I read a while ago- “the Mormon Church is the second most effective organization in the world. The first is the German army.”— by a sociologist (whose name I don’t remember) around the year 1903

achilles wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:34 pm

I'm done with being afraid all the time

Achilles is back! Good to hear from you. And good line.