New TR question

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jfro18
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Re: New TR question

Post by jfro18 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:45 am

Reuben wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:41 am
jfro18 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:26 pm
#13 Old: If you have previously received your temple endowment: 1) Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? 2) Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

#13 New: Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment?
The temple doesn't instruct anyone to wear the garment "night and day." The wording is "throughout your life."

The new #13 allows members in the know to sleep naked and wear the garment only on Sundays to keep nosy people from nosing. RR might have stayed if this change had been rolled out earlier.
Is there *anyone* who is a believing member that will interpret this change to mean anything but to wear it "throughout your life" meaning 24/7?

I think it does feel like it opens a loophole, but I really don't think it was intended to nor do I think any leaders or TBMs will treat it as such.

Reuben
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Re: New TR question

Post by Reuben » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:51 am

jfro18 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:45 am
Reuben wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:41 am
jfro18 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:26 pm
#13 Old: If you have previously received your temple endowment: 1) Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? 2) Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

#13 New: Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment?
The temple doesn't instruct anyone to wear the garment "night and day." The wording is "throughout your life."

The new #13 allows members in the know to sleep naked and wear the garment only on Sundays to keep nosy people from nosing. RR might have stayed if this change had been rolled out earlier.
Is there *anyone* who is a believing member that will interpret this change to mean anything but to wear it "throughout your life" meaning 24/7?

I think it does feel like it opens a loophole, but I really don't think it was intended to nor do I think any leaders or TBMs will treat it as such.
True. Conservative members will still want the fire and bullet immunity while out in The Wicked World (tm). You never know when one of those exponentially increasing minions of Satan will reveal itself and pop you one.

Progressive members will feel less like liars for nuancing the hell out of this question, and more like liars for doing the same to the others. I think it might be a net zero change for them on average.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Red Ryder
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Re: New TR question

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:10 am

“Reuben” wrote: The new #13 allows members in the know to sleep naked and wear the garment only on Sundays to keep nosy people from nosing. RR might have stayed if this change had been rolled out earlier.
Is my hate for garments that evident?

When the dude read #13, the wife made a questioning comment and I quickly said “it means you don’t have to wear them night and day anymore! She said, that’s not what it means and I countered with “how were you instructed in the temple?” She said “to wear them night and day.”

So stupid.

I did notice that Nelson didn’t read the yard work addendum question.

So stupid.

I’m going to kick off a grass roots effort to get these stupid things tossed from daily wear.

Think of it like the naked version of Ordain Women, Protect every Child, and the Swedish Rescue all mixed together.

We will march on Temple Square and attempt to attend the priesthood session come April in nothing but Garments. Then do a fast and call upon the Q15 to meet with me in only their holy undies on the streets of SLC, and if that doesn’t work we will all meet with the Director of Garment Indoctrination & Distribution in a chapel somewhere in Sweden to discuss our concerns regarding the impact on body image, sexual expression, and the libidos of Mormons everywhere.

This new grass roots effort will piggy back off the Game of Thrones acronym GoT!

Garment Only in the Temple!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Red Ryder
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Re: New TR question

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:14 am

In all seriousness, does anybody really honestly discuss with the bishop and answer all these questions in any way other than a yes or no at the right time?

They don’t care if you nuance as long as you say the right things!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Just This Guy
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Re: New TR question

Post by Just This Guy » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:22 am

I believe the instructions to leadership is that they are instructed to ask the question, word-for-word and take the answer and move on. They are not supposed to ask followup questions.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Sheamus Moore
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Re: New TR question

Post by Sheamus Moore » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:27 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:14 am
In all seriousness, does anybody really honestly discuss with the bishop and answer all these questions in any way other than a yes or no at the right time?
Probably not and at the same time I suspect some leaders will feel empowered and justified to wander off the reservation that much further while interviewing - paticularly with youth.

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fetchface
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Re: New TR question

Post by fetchface » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:40 am

Bishop: Do you understand and obey the Word of Wisdom?

Me: I understand it, but I eat meat in the summertime and I don't put tobacco on my bruises. I do let my coffee cool down a bit before I drink it, so I'm good on the hot drinks thing! And I enjoy a cold one from time to time as prescribed...
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/

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MerrieMiss
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Re: New TR question

Post by MerrieMiss » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:06 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:14 am
In all seriousness, does anybody really honestly discuss with the bishop and answer all these questions in any way other than a yes or no at the right time?

They don’t care if you nuance as long as you say the right things!
I think it's a personality type. I never did as a believer and I certainly don't as a non-believer. But there are people who go into interviews, who even schedule interviews, to make sure their understanding aligns with the bishop's, and this for TR, fertility issues, change of career, general life decisions. Personally, I don't get it. And I guess that's why I never really felt dishonest about the TR interviews when my beliefs changed. I never made sure we (bishop and I) were on the same page when I was a believer, and I just didn't see why I would bother as a nuanced or non-believer. The truth is, most of the men who do the interviews don't want to be there and just want you to answer yes and no and and move on with their day. Sure, there are a few with power trips, but most are just going through the motions.

lostinmiddlemormonism
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Re: New TR question

Post by lostinmiddlemormonism » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:10 am

jfro18 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:26 pm


#11 Old: Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

#11 New: Do you understand and obey the Word of Wisdom?

This is likely for those who think that iced coffee is OK since it is OK under the word of wisdom... or those evil 'cino drinks.
I'd love to know how they square this new question with what they claim are the actual words of the Lord as recorded in Doctrine and Covenants section 89, "To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint,..."

So the Lord says that it isn't a commandment, and further says that it should not be a constraint...yet you are constrained from entering the temple if you don't obey something that the Lord says isn't a commandment?

If that's not a WtF moment, then I don't know what is.

-lost

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MerrieMiss
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Re: New TR question

Post by MerrieMiss » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:12 am

I can hear the testimonies now:

We have been prepared for this day! The focus on observant sabbath worship in the past few years proves that the Lord's servants have been preparing us! We are living a higher law!

Gross. And now the weirdos who post pictures of church attendance on their vacation to Hawaii will be what we should aspire to, instead of being the weirdos who don't know how to let it go for one Sunday.

And I agree with Alas, this will be hard on TBM spouses in various ways. For my husband, who works an incredible amount, relaxed Sunday observance has been his way of taking a break from work and spending time with the family. Now he can feel guilty about it while he rationalizes that it's family time, and what is more important - church or family, but now it's included in TR questions, what should he do? Oh, to be a rationalizing Mormon!

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wtfluff
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Re: New TR question

Post by wtfluff » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:34 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:14 am
In all seriousness, does anybody really honestly discuss with the bishop and answer all these questions in any way other than a yes or no at the right time?

They don’t care if you nuance as long as you say the right things!
Just This Guy wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:22 am
I believe the instructions to leadership is that they are instructed to ask the question, word-for-word and take the answer and move on. They are not supposed to ask followup questions.
Bishop Roulette.

I have of course heard the anecdotal horror stories of Bishops who want to dig deeper. I personally never experienced it myself. It's been quite a few years since I had an "official" golden ticket interview. I gave up on that ticket even when I was trying to continue believing, but my stupid, rational, fluffy brain realized that the temple was a colossal waste of time and money, and no help whatsoever to the realities of day-to-day life.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

We are secrets to each other

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Hagoth
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Re: New TR question

Post by Hagoth » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:01 pm

Reuben wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:41 am
jfro18 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:26 pm
#13 Old: If you have previously received your temple endowment: 1) Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? 2) Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

#13 New: Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment?
The temple doesn't instruct anyone to wear the garment "night and day." The wording is "throughout your life."

The new #13 allows members in the know to sleep naked and wear the garment only on Sundays to keep nosy people from nosing. RR might have stayed if this change had been rolled out earlier.
So is it ok to mow the lawn and go hiking without garments now?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: New TR question

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:11 pm

It’s ok as long as you wear them from 11:55 pm to 12:05 am.

Morning and night is covered.
Day or night is covered.
Through out your life is covered.

Your shoulders are not covered.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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2bizE
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Re: New TR question

Post by 2bizE » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:46 pm

So, does my wife wear her bra under or over her garment?
~2bizE

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alas
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Re: New TR question

Post by alas » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:32 am

2bizE wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:46 pm
So, does my wife wear her bra under or over her garment?
The instructions are “under”. But I hear that there are temple matrons that instruct the newly endowed that it is up to them. But then if you *really* decide it is up to you, and other women notice because you have an instance of changing in the same room with other women, and you are the only woman in the group wearing the bra over, you get ratted out to your bishop and he kindly suggests you are doing it wrong.

This is something that gets discussed on the feminist blogs, believe it or not. It is actually a bit of a controversy. Because if you are a DD cup, trying to wear A cup garments under a DD cup bra, it just doesn’t work. You have the worst bunching and pulling and puckering of too much fabric all in the wrong places and not enough fabric where needed.

It is one of those Bishop roulette things that if you get caught “doing it wrong” the bishop might go beyond the yes/no questions.

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græy
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Re: New TR question

Post by græy » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:52 am

Do you understand and obey the Word of Wisdom?
Which version, scriptural or cultural? If cultural, then with caffeine or without?

The answer is yes I understand, and it depends on the version.
Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment?
I was instructed to wear them throughout my life with no extra clarification as to what that might mean. I intend to periodically eat ice cream throughout my life, so by that same standard and definition, yes.
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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Red Ryder
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Re: New TR question

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:16 am

We clearly overthink Mormonism.

We’re supposed to just bow our heads and say yes!

Pray, pay, obey, and hate gays!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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2bizE
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Re: New TR question

Post by 2bizE » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:45 am

How about the new question on keeping the Sabbath Day holy at home and at church. What does that mean to keep it holy at church?
Would ordering a pizza to be delivered to the EQ meeting on Sunday afternoon and watching the football game on your phone be considered not keeping it holy at church?
~2bizE

Anon70
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Re: New TR question

Post by Anon70 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:48 am

fetchface wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:40 am
Bishop: Do you understand and obey the Word of Wisdom?

Me: I understand it, but I eat meat in the summertime and I don't put tobacco on my bruises. I do let my coffee cool down a bit before I drink it, so I'm good on the hot drinks thing! And I enjoy a cold one from time to time as prescribed...
I was thinking about this when they made the change. I *understand* that they’re only talking about parts of the WOW and not the whole thing or we’d all be drinking mild barley drinks. So dumb.

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Random
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Re: New TR question

Post by Random » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:09 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:50 pm
The question shouldn't be "Do you understand and obey the Word of Wisdom?"

It should be "Do Mormon leaders understand the Word of Wisdom?"
Boom! Yes!
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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