I choose love, full stop.

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Mormorrisey
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:16 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:47 am
So by your standards the church can't teach anything because no matter what they teach someone is going to be affected negatively. Can't teach the Word of Wisdom because some people really struggle with chemical/alcohol addiction like I do. Can't teach about the law of chastity because some people can't control their physical/sexual urges. Can't teach tithing because some people have medical bills and struggle to pay that 10% or they will lose their homes. And that would make then feel like unworthy piece of crap. Can't have any standards or beliefs because someone somewhere struggles with it.
I'm not sure that's what anyone is saying here, from the posts I have read, including yours - the church CAN teach whatever it wants to. I don't think anybody disagrees with that. If it's a freedom issue, sure, Oaks can spew whatever nonsense he pleases. However, I CAN disagree with him, and think that the church's stance on women, LGBTQ individuals and apostates are full of bullcrap. And then express that opinion to friends, family and on anonymous internet forums. And when I go to church on Sunday, I CAN speak out against the stupid things I hear there, and try to give the marginalized a voice, all the while tiptoeing around the desire of people who don't think like I do who would like to ax my sorry ass at their whim.

So if you don't think the church is worth changing, fill your boots. Just leave, as you said. However, because of my family I'm stuck there, I've kept quiet long enough, and if I choose to take the position that I don't like something at church, your damn right I'm going to speak up and try to change it. As futile as it will be, no doubt. But as others have said (and I believe the entire point of the original premise of this thread) I will choose to support the marginalized over the expressed majority opinion I find at church. Full stop.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

Blashyrkh
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Blashyrkh » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:51 pm

alas wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:29 am
Blashyrkh wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:47 am
So by your standards the church can't teach anything because no matter what they teach someone is going to be affected negatively. Can't teach the Word of Wisdom because some people really struggle with chemical/alcohol addiction like I do. Can't teach about the law of chastity because some people can't control their physical/sexual urges. Can't teach tithing because some people have medical bills and struggle to pay that 10% or they will lose their homes. And that would make then feel like unworthy piece of crap. Can't have any standards or beliefs because someone somewhere struggles with it.
No, by our standards, some battles are worth fighting and others are not worth fighting. I am fine if you think that protecting gay children is unimportant and not a battle worth fighting. You can draw your line at “nothing is worth bothering the church about”.

But leave those of us who think it is a battle worth fighting alone. Stop trying to tell us what is worth fighting and what is not. Accept that we put the line at a different place than you do. I really don’t care if the church continues to teach WoW. That is not causing children to commit suicide. It is just making the church look silly.

Oh, I also draw the line at the church’s sexism. I grew up hating myself because I was a girl because of some church teachings and how the church treats girls compared to boys. So, the sexism is also worth fighting. I don’t expect you to feel the same cause your experiences are different than mine.
So you can fight to change the church to follow your beliefs but others can't fight to maintain the beliefs that they have always had? I'm not sure how that works.

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alas
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by alas » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:38 pm

Blashyrkh wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:51 pm
alas wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:29 am
Blashyrkh wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:47 am
So by your standards the church can't teach anything because no matter what they teach someone is going to be affected negatively. Can't teach the Word of Wisdom because some people really struggle with chemical/alcohol addiction like I do. Can't teach about the law of chastity because some people can't control their physical/sexual urges. Can't teach tithing because some people have medical bills and struggle to pay that 10% or they will lose their homes. And that would make then feel like unworthy piece of crap. Can't have any standards or beliefs because someone somewhere struggles with it.
No, by our standards, some battles are worth fighting and others are not worth fighting. I am fine if you think that protecting gay children is unimportant and not a battle worth fighting. You can draw your line at “nothing is worth bothering the church about”.

But leave those of us who think it is a battle worth fighting alone. Stop trying to tell us what is worth fighting and what is not. Accept that we put the line at a different place than you do. I really don’t care if the church continues to teach WoW. That is not causing children to commit suicide. It is just making the church look silly.

Oh, I also draw the line at the church’s sexism. I grew up hating myself because I was a girl because of some church teachings and how the church treats girls compared to boys. So, the sexism is also worth fighting. I don’t expect you to feel the same cause your experiences are different than mine.
So you can fight to change the church to follow your beliefs but others can't fight to maintain the beliefs that they have always had? I'm not sure how that works.
They can fight to maintain their beliefs. Couldn’t stop them if I wanted to. But if those of us on the side of love keep fighting, eventually love wins. I believe that love eventually wins because I have seen it.

You keep arguing this point, and trying to twist what we say. Where did I ever say that I didn’t expect the church to keep being homophobic and sexist? Yes, I am trying to get them to be less homophobic and less sexist. And I just don’t see why you have a problem with that. But I am not saying they can’t keep up their side of the argument. Because I know eventually they will either be convinced that love is better than homophobia, or they will die and someone younger and less homophobic will take their place. Either way, those of us on the side of love win.

And see, by continuing to argue with us, you are trying to change us, and I don’t see why. Honest question. Why are you trying to stop those of us who want to protect children who are gay who are still in the church? Do you believe that being gay is a horrible sin they need to repent of? What do you hope to gain by getting up to just walk away from the church and not care that it harms innocent kids?

As I learned watching Harry Potter, love is the strongest magic there is.❤️

Blashyrkh
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Blashyrkh » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:28 am

Deep down this has very little to do with the LGBTQ issue. It has to do with people demanding that a group, any group change their centuries old beliefs and practices because they don't like them. The majority of LDS people like what their leaders teach. I would say that a majority don't want the LGBTQ issue crammed down their religious throats. They don't want gays married in their temples. They don't want coffee drinker a in their temples for heavens sake. So let it be. Why does the LDS church have to allow any practice they disagree with into their church? Should Muslims be forced to allow Jews to practice in their mosques? You may think that the current policy of the LDS church is wrong and hateful. That's fine. But if you start demanding they accept practices that go against what you feel is right pretty soon everyone is forced to believe whatever someone else tells them they have to. Eventually you start fining people for their different beliefs. What's next? Taking away their tax exempt status and even right to practice their religion because they don't believe what you do i.e. "Beto" O'Rourke's statement? Then what? Take away the children from parents who teach their kids something you don't believe in because you feel it may harm them? Arrest and imprison parents who are anti-this that is the other? The church has had idiotic beliefs for decades. All church's do.

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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:53 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:28 am
Deep down this has very little to do with the LGBTQ issue. It has to do with people demanding that a group, any group change their centuries old beliefs and practices because they don't like them. The majority of LDS people like what their leaders teach. I would say that a majority don't want the LGBTQ issue crammed down their religious throats. They don't want gays married in their temples. They don't want coffee drinker a in their temples for heavens sake. So let it be. Why does the LDS church have to allow any practice they disagree with into their church? Should Muslims be forced to allow Jews to practice in their mosques? You may think that the current policy of the LDS church is wrong and hateful. That's fine. But if you start demanding they accept practices that go against what you feel is right pretty soon everyone is forced to believe whatever someone else tells them they have to. Eventually you start fining people for their different beliefs. What's next? Taking away their tax exempt status and even right to practice their religion because they don't believe what you do i.e. "Beto" O'Rourke's statement? Then what? Take away the children from parents who teach their kids something you don't believe in because you feel it may harm them? Arrest and imprison parents who are anti-this that is the other? The church has had idiotic beliefs for decades. All church's do.
I actually think you have a valid point -- up to a point. Churches and individuals in the U.S. have constitutional protections to believe and teach just about anything they want. We cherish the right and we should. I wouldn't want to be like France, which has restricted religious expression like wearing the burka at public beaches.

I think it's an important discussion because there will always be some tension between certain private religious beliefs and public consensus on what constitutes the greater good. Sometimes society is going to decide that the greater good, or public safety, or whatever, has got to trump the free expression of personal belief. Jehovah's Witness parents whose beliefs endanger their children have been overridden. We have drawn a limit to free expression.

I don't even think that's what's happening here though. As far as I can tell no one here is advocating the church be forced to allow gay sealings in the temple. To me it looks more like an effort to change people's hearts and minds, (which frankly is what you're doing too, with your argument). You never answered an earlier question about the church's former policies on blacks being banned from temple and priesthood. I'd very much like to know if you really think it was wrong of the members who objected at the time to speak up from within? Because, arguably, it was a combination of pressure from within and without the organization that finally brought about the change.
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.

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alas
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by alas » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:57 pm

I don’t care if they ever allows gays to marry in the temple. But I think they should stay out of politics. During prop 8 they even broke the law and spent tithing money to fight gay marriage. I don’t think they should be allowed to break the law. I don’t think they have any “religious freedom” to fight a political movement and then complain that they are being persecuted when people demonstrate against them outside their temple. If they are going to get political, then they have to accept arguments against their politics, they have to accept that people have a right to disagree and show that disagreement.

And for me, it is more about changing the hearts of members. I don’t give a s about the beliefs of the brethren. But I do care about how my sister in law treats my daughter. And by the way, love eventually does win. I care how my daughter’s in laws treat her.

Generally, I don’t care if people believe in flying monkeys. They can believe whatever they want as long as it does no harm to others. But when they believe something that harms innocent people, then I start caring. The law also cares. That is why when a kid is sick, and the parents believe only in faith healing, the state can step in and force the parents to have the child treated by doctors as well as their faith healing.

Blashyrkh
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Blashyrkh » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:10 am

alas wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:57 pm
I don’t care if they ever allows gays to marry in the temple. But I think they should stay out of politics. During prop 8 they even broke the law and spent tithing money to fight gay marriage. I don’t think they should be allowed to break the law. I don’t think they have any “religious freedom” to fight a political movement and then complain that they are being persecuted when people demonstrate against them outside their temple. If they are going to get political, then they have to accept arguments against their politics, they have to accept that people have a right to disagree and show that disagreement.

And for me, it is more about changing the hearts of members. I don’t give a s about the beliefs of the brethren. But I do care about how my sister in law treats my daughter. And by the way, love eventually does win. I care how my daughter’s in laws treat her.

Generally, I don’t care if people believe in flying monkeys. They can believe whatever they want as long as it does no harm to others. But when they believe something that harms innocent people, then I start caring. The law also cares. That is why when a kid is sick, and the parents believe only in faith healing, the state can step in and force the parents to have the child treated by doctors as well as their faith healing.
Then you must eradicate ALL religion from the face of the Earth. All religions hurt people. All religions have some set of standards that you must conform to or else you will suffer some sort of punishment. I grew up Southern Baptist and if you want to discuss hate filled religious groups the Mormon Church has absolutely nothing on these people. The difference is that the kids that I knew who believes differently than their parents stood up to their parents. I knew multiple kids who lived with friends or relatives because their parents didn't accept their beliefs or lifestyles. I knew kids who emancipated themselves and got a job and an apartment rather than live with their parents. Yes it's a crappy situation but they took their lives in their own hands. My son moved out at 17 because I didn't accept his drug lifestyle. He didn't bitch and moan about how I didn't accept who he was. He made a choice. He still does drugs but he has a full-time job and gets by in life. Does the LGBTQ think they have the corner on the suffering and family distinction market? Not even close. Kids all across the country leave their homes because they can't get along with their parents. I joined the Army two weeks after graduating because it was either that or my father and I were going to have a 9mm dual on the front lawn. I am sorry gay people aren't accepted by everyone. I am not accepted by everyone and neither is anyone. But there comes a time when you have to either follow what you are told or set the sails on your own ship and live your own life. But to expect a church of umpteen million to change their belief because a tiny, tiny minority has their feelings hurt is a fools errand. I went to Ldsfreedomforum just for research purposes. There was a poll about what the members would do if the church accepted homosexuality. The majority said they would leave the church. Now I know these people represent a fringe section of the church but one could still use their numbers as a representation of the vast membership of the church. For the most part they do not accept LGBTQ amongst their congregation. I say let them "worship how, where or what they may." I in turn have the choice to go my separate way as does everyone else who disagrees with any group. Yes it sucks leaving family and friends behind to follow your own path. It takes sacrifice and it is filled with a lot of sorrow. But so does living in a situation where you know that you are not accepted for who you are.

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Newme
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Newme » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:42 am

wtfluff wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:07 pm
Blashyrkh wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:18 am
IF YOU DONT LIKE THE BELIEFS OF THE CHURCH AND IT MAKES YOU SAD THEN DONT BE A MEMBER!!!! Seriously. This has nothing to do with "acceptance" or "love." This has to do with forcing someone or some group who thinks you are bad to accept you in order to make whatever it is in the back of your head that still makes you think you are indeed bad go away. The church is anti-gay. We get it. Then don't join it. My uncle was a full fledged homosexual yet a devout member. He had to make a decision as to which meant more to him. He chose the church and lived a celibate life. He knew the rules and didn't demand that the church change them for the way he was. Should I demand a temple recommend because I like to drink alcohol? Should I demand a recommend even though I think the church is b.s.? No. I decide what is important to me and what isn't and I go my way in peace. I hate the church. But what I hate even more is the attitude that millions of people have to change their beliefs and standards because these standards make an itty-bitty minority feel bad. Go start your own church and be the leader of it. Make yourself an apostle or prophet of said church and then you can believe whatever you choose. You can exclude and include whomever you please. But don't go around demanding that anyone change their beliefs to please you because their beliefs make you feel sad inside.
I wonder...

If we all jumped in a time machine and went back 50 years, would you voice the same rant about black people?
Skin color is not the same as deviated sexual preference. If you don’t understand that, then you struggle with basic logic, or maybe you haven’t given up the “blind belief” from the cult - which requires ignoring inconvenient facts.

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Newme
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Newme » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:44 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:28 am
Deep down this has very little to do with the LGBTQ issue. It has to do with people demanding that a group, any group change their centuries old beliefs and practices because they don't like them. The majority of LDS people like what their leaders teach. I would say that a majority don't want the LGBTQ issue crammed down their religious throats. They don't want gays married in their temples. They don't want coffee drinker a in their temples for heavens sake. So let it be. Why does the LDS church have to allow any practice they disagree with into their church? Should Muslims be forced to allow Jews to practice in their mosques? You may think that the current policy of the LDS church is wrong and hateful. That's fine. But if you start demanding they accept practices that go against what you feel is right pretty soon everyone is forced to believe whatever someone else tells them they have to. Eventually you start fining people for their different beliefs. What's next? Taking away their tax exempt status and even right to practice their religion because they don't believe what you do i.e. "Beto" O'Rourke's statement? Then what? Take away the children from parents who teach their kids something you don't believe in because you feel it may harm them? Arrest and imprison parents who are anti-this that is the other? The church has had idiotic beliefs for decades. All church's do.
Well put. I wish more people could see through the BS on both sides like that.

The thing is, LOVE is not supporting behavior known to be harmful. 2 of my friends have died of AIDS - there’s an ugly side of the homosexual lifestyle which most ignore.

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alas
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by alas » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:31 pm

Newme wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:44 am
Blashyrkh wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:28 am
Deep down this has very little to do with the LGBTQ issue. It has to do with people demanding that a group, any group change their centuries old beliefs and practices because they don't like them. The majority of LDS people like what their leaders teach. I would say that a majority don't want the LGBTQ issue crammed down their religious throats. They don't want gays married in their temples. They don't want coffee drinker a in their temples for heavens sake. So let it be. Why does the LDS church have to allow any practice they disagree with into their church? Should Muslims be forced to allow Jews to practice in their mosques? You may think that the current policy of the LDS church is wrong and hateful. That's fine. But if you start demanding they accept practices that go against what you feel is right pretty soon everyone is forced to believe whatever someone else tells them they have to. Eventually you start fining people for their different beliefs. What's next? Taking away their tax exempt status and even right to practice their religion because they don't believe what you do i.e. "Beto" O'Rourke's statement? Then what? Take away the children from parents who teach their kids something you don't believe in because you feel it may harm them? Arrest and imprison parents who are anti-this that is the other? The church has had idiotic beliefs for decades. All church's do.
Well put. I wish more people could see through the BS on both sides like that.

The thing is, LOVE is not supporting behavior known to be harmful. 2 of my friends have died of AIDS - there’s an ugly side of the homosexual lifestyle which most ignore.
My best friend from high school died of AIDS, so I am not ignoring the ugly side of anything. Truth is, that gays in monogamous relations are just as safe from AIDS as heterosexuals in monogamous relationships. So, I just don’t buy the idea that AIDS is one of the evils spread by gays. That is why I am so firmly in favor of gay marriage. It reduces promiscuity. AIDS is an evil of promiscuity. Just like the STDs that were first spread by straights who were not monogamous. The “sin” and dangerous behavior is sex outside of monogamous marriage.

Now, granted, there are sexual behaviors gay may engage in that are also dangerous, but straights also engage in those same exact behaviors. So, warn people of the dangers of anal sex if you like, but realize it is not the only way gays have sex, nor it it exclusive to gays. There are heterosexual men who prefer that with their female partners, so don’t pick on the homosexuals with that problem, and especially don’t pick on lesbians.



And, no I don’t have to fight against all religion for crying out loud. Dammit, I get to pick my own battles. You don’t get to tell me what I can or cannot fight against, or that if I fight that I have to fight this too. My choice. Period. I get to say what is worth my time and emotional energy. I draw my line, you get to draw yours at “walk away and don’t give a ...” I understand where you are drawing your line, so just accept that my line is a different place.

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wtfluff
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by wtfluff » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:57 pm

Newme wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:42 am
wtfluff wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:07 pm
Blashyrkh wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:18 am
IF YOU DONT LIKE THE BELIEFS OF THE CHURCH AND IT MAKES YOU SAD THEN DONT BE A MEMBER!!!! Seriously. This has nothing to do with "acceptance" or "love." This has to do with forcing someone or some group who thinks you are bad to accept you in order to make whatever it is in the back of your head that still makes you think you are indeed bad go away. The church is anti-gay. We get it. Then don't join it. My uncle was a full fledged homosexual yet a devout member. He had to make a decision as to which meant more to him. He chose the church and lived a celibate life. He knew the rules and didn't demand that the church change them for the way he was. Should I demand a temple recommend because I like to drink alcohol? Should I demand a recommend even though I think the church is b.s.? No. I decide what is important to me and what isn't and I go my way in peace. I hate the church. But what I hate even more is the attitude that millions of people have to change their beliefs and standards because these standards make an itty-bitty minority feel bad. Go start your own church and be the leader of it. Make yourself an apostle or prophet of said church and then you can believe whatever you choose. You can exclude and include whomever you please. But don't go around demanding that anyone change their beliefs to please you because their beliefs make you feel sad inside.
I wonder...

If we all jumped in a time machine and went back 50 years, would you voice the same rant about black people?
Skin color is not the same as deviated sexual preference. If you don’t understand that, then you struggle with basic logic, or maybe you haven’t given up the “blind belief” from the cult - which requires ignoring inconvenient facts.
Just like Blashyrkh, I know you won't answer the question as asked, but I'm still stupid enough to ask it:

Both Blashyrkh and Newme: WHEN DID YOU CHOOSE YOUR HETEROSEXUALITY?


People don't choose their sexuality any more than they choose their skin color. Full Stop.

Unless of course Blashyrkh and Newme DID choose their sexuality. (Again, I doubt either of you will actually answer that question.)

And now I'll just enjoy the silence...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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Red Ryder
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Red Ryder » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:37 pm

“Blashyrhk” wrote:Then you must eradicate ALL religion from the face of the Earth. All religions hurt people. All religions have some set of standards that you must conform to or else you will suffer some sort of punishment.
I think this is a great idea. The detrimental effect of religion has far outweighed the religious benefits.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Not Buying It
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Not Buying It » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:47 am

Personally I’m having trouble understanding the argument against attempting to change a Church that changes as much as the LDS Church does. Are you a polygamist? Is the priesthood withheld from black members of your ward? Can that gay couple you know have their child baptized? Do you go to three hours of Church?

The argument against attempting to change the Church might make sense if it was static, but it isn’t. The Church will change - might as well be part of influencing that change.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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MoPag
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by MoPag » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:28 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:37 pm
“Blashyrhk” wrote:Then you must eradicate ALL religion from the face of the Earth. All religions hurt people. All religions have some set of standards that you must conform to or else you will suffer some sort of punishment.
I think this is a great idea. The detrimental effect of religion has far outweighed the religious benefits.
South Park did this GREAT 3 part series called Go God Go Cartman time travels in to a future where religion has been abolished.

**Spoiler Alert***

People just align themselves with the scientific theories that the find the most appealing/believable. And they persecute the people who don't belong to their groups. What the boys learn at the end of the series is that humans will eventually f everything up.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Jeffret
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Jeffret » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:04 pm

Blashyrkh wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:18 am
IF YOU DONT LIKE THE BELIEFS OF THE CHURCH AND IT MAKES YOU SAD THEN DONT BE A MEMBER!!!!
I couldn't say what NOM represents today, but this is certainly antithetical to the original vision.


But, then I really don't think this is an accurate portrayal of the base concerns. The stated concern is too impersonal for this level of emotional intensity. Blashyrkh, how does this issue impact you? How is it meaningful to you? Or to put it simply, why do you care? If you were a member of the Church, I could understand your deep concern about anyone asking the Church to change, but that wouldn't be a very NOMish approach. Of course, neither is the stated approach, so it's rather a conundrum.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Jeffret » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:12 pm

Newme wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:42 am
Skin color is not the same as deviated sexual preference. If you don’t understand that, then you struggle with basic logic, or maybe you haven’t given up the “blind belief” from the cult - which requires ignoring inconvenient facts.
This is, of course, utter rubbish, as can easily be discerned by listening to people. Or just paying attention to who they are.

It's got about as much validity as the "facts" that "women’s brains are 6% to 11% smaller than men’s" and "Women’s brains absorb information like pancakes soak up syrup so it’s hard for them to focus .... Men’s brains are more like waffles. They’re better able to focus because the information collects in each little waffle square."

(https://www.huffpost.com/entry/women-er ... e33e78606a)

It's all just fabrications to justify people's opinions and behaviors, to justify insisting people behave a certain way or being mean to them.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

Blashyrkh
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Blashyrkh » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:19 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:04 pm
Blashyrkh wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:18 am
IF YOU DONT LIKE THE BELIEFS OF THE CHURCH AND IT MAKES YOU SAD THEN DONT BE A MEMBER!!!!
I couldn't say what NOM represents today, but this is certainly antithetical to the original vision.


But, then I really don't think this is an accurate portrayal of the base concerns. The stated concern is too impersonal for this level of emotional intensity. Blashyrkh, how does this issue impact you? How is it meaningful to you? Or to put it simply, why do you care? If you were a member of the Church, I could understand your deep concern about anyone asking the Church to change, but that wouldn't be a very NOMish approach. Of course, neither is the stated approach, so it's rather a conundrum.
This subject doesn't impact me personally. The problem I have with it is a tiny minority demanding a majority change their beliefs. Let's take any subject that any group believes in. Should we demand that Muslims change their offensive beliefs? Southern Baptist? Catholics? Should coffee drinkers unite and demand the church renounce the WofW? How about single members demand the church renounce the belief in eternal marriage? I'm sure my 50-year-old sister feels bad that she never married despite the commandment to do so. Let's demand an end to missions because they make those weaklings who can't leave mommy for two years feel bad. I could go on and on. Let's get rid of all core beliefs of all church's because in the end someone's feelings are hurt when they violate the standards of their choice method of worship.

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Evil_Bert
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Location: Northern Nevada

Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Evil_Bert » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:23 am

Thank the FSM for the ignore feature.
Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Red Ryder
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:43 am

The best part of humanity is we have the fundamental right to our beliefs and thoughts. People can choose to love or hate.

We have to remember that the majority of people used to think the same way with slavery, equal rights, and a thousand other ways of thinking that have now progressively changed.

I’m hoping that humanity can continue to progress to the point where we stop hating, conquering, and killing each other in the name of religion, dogma, and political gain.

Unfortunately, Mopag spoiled it by telling me the ending from South Park so I don’t hold out for world peace in my lifetime.

Fortunately I can do my part and love my neighbor.

Thanks Blashyrkh and Newme for your comments and thoughts. You have the right to them and they help me to understand my own evolving position.

The best part of my faith crisis was the new ability to think for my self and decide what I want to believe in. Posts like this help with that process.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Jeffret
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Jeffret » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:43 pm

Blashyrkh wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:19 pm
The problem I have with it is a tiny minority demanding a majority change their beliefs. Let's take any subject that any group believes in. Should we demand that Muslims change their offensive beliefs?
It's not one that I have any connection to so I'm not going to get personally involved, but I see no reason others can't.
Southern Baptist? Catholics?
ditto
Should coffee drinkers unite and demand the church renounce the WofW?
Seemed to work pretty well for Coke and Pepsi so why not? But again not one that I feel compelled to support.
How about single members demand the church renounce the belief in eternal marriage?
The Church doesn't have to renounce their belief in order to be less cruel about it. I don't see why single members couldn't campaign for a change like that.

Can we try a few other examples? One very topical. Given your comments, I presume you oppose Sam Young and his efforts to Protect Every Child. Is that correct?

And a few historical ones: Would you have opposed the abolition of slavery because it was a tiny minority demanding a majority change their beliefs? Or more recent but on a similar topic, the overthrow of anti-miscegenation laws in 1967? Or what about women and property? Should women not have been allowed to vote because it was a tiny minority demanding a majority change their beliefs?

As far as I'm concerned anyone can ask someone to change their behavior or beliefs on any topic. That's pretty fundamental First Amendment stuff. They can even express it as a demand if they want and get pretty vocal about it, as Sam Young has done. Some things are worth getting involved in and supporting. If I were in Utah I would've considered attending Sam's march.

Or another headline I saw when looking up something about Sam's march, "U. students stage walkout, say school still isn't safe 1 year after Lauren McCluskey's death". That's a reasonable thing to try and change and it's hard to see that the students are wrong or evil for seeking change.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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