I choose love, full stop.

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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wtfluff
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by wtfluff » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:46 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:14 am
“wtfluff” wrote: Wow... I'm not sure how my simple reply lead to that, but there you go.

Sorry to everyone else in the thread. I think we knew where it was headed. Honestly I was trying to avoid it.

Please don't expect another reply from me, Newme, I'm done. I agree that you and I disagree.
I don’t want NOM to be an echo chamber and I don’t believe in censorship or banning people for their opinions. However, I’m disappointed that this post has turned into a dumpster fire.

I see various points on both sides of this issue and now that I’m educated on Newme’s biological designed “exit only anus that can’t be used for sexual pleasure” I have to point out that the mouth was designed for eating food but also does a damn great job of providing sexual pleasure. Who knows, maybe the anus does too?

...and Slayer rocks!

Just saying...
Well Dear Cowboy... Methinks you just tossed a bit of petrol on the Dumpster Fire. :shock:
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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wtfluff
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by wtfluff » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:48 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:41 am
wtfluff wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:34 am
Blashyrkh wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:32 pm
I was never accepted amongst the Utah LDS community because of my Slayer t-shirts and long hair.
Interesting. Did those same folks try to deny you basic human rights because you wore Slayer t-shirts?

And since you're saying that there should be no dissent in LD$-Inc., what do you think about the "Law of Common Consent?"
What a total b.s. question! What power does the LDS church wield that they can deny anyone any basic right. As far as I can see gay people have as many civil rights and straight people. No one has a right to anything regarding a private church. Everyone can get married now. I now serve in the Army with gays and lesbians. This whole idea that gays and lesbians are now discriminated against is utter garbage. Just look at the last pride parade SLC. There are thousands of people in what is arguably the most conservative state cheering them on. When I was a kid it was a mocking term to be labeled as gay. Now, according to my wife who has taught high school for 12 years, gays and lesbians are the most popular kids in school... in Utah. So let's stop this victimization of gays and lesbians. For heavens sake the LDS Church invited the Washington DC Gay Men's Choir sing at the visitors center. That's some hardcore bigotry right there. I am sorry that it offends you that some people have refused to worship at your altar of homosexuality. Some people find homosexuality offensive and vial. Some people find me offensive and vile. I have moved on. So should you.
Oops... Sorry for such a "STUPID" question Oh Enlightened One. Was that second question just as utterly STUPID?

"Altar" of homosexuality? Seriously: Where to I get one of those? I'm sure it would be an absolutely FABULOUS altar, and much more fun than any other altar I have ever encountered.



And of course: Why would I expect any different sort of answer?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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Newme
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Newme » Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:18 pm

Blashyrkh,
You’re not alone in being shunned as a teen for appearances. I also listened to a variety of music - metal, rap etc.

Ever hear of Jim Breuer? He explains a likely scenerio not too far into the future regarding heavy metal... :)
https://youtu.be/ijV9Rt-rQoc

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moksha
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by moksha » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:51 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:32 pm
LDS people are also free to exclude whomever they choose to.
While LDS leaders had chosen this exclusionary route for those of African, Aboriginal, New Guinean, etc... descent, they have since changed their mind.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Jeffret
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Jeffret » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:59 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:32 pm
What I do care about is someone demanding that a group of free people accept something that they think is wrong.
To answer an earlier relevant question, yes I do think Catholics should change something that I think is wrong. I'm convinced that their belief that it's okay for priests to molest little boys is wrong. And the belief that it's more important to shuffle priests around and hide their sins, allowing them to continue abusing, than to correct them is wrong. Apparently Catholics, at least among the leadership, think it is wrong to let information out about abusive priests and to remove the priests from their source of power. I'm not unique in demanding that they accept something that they think is wrong.

How are LGBT issues any different?

An easy answer is that these Catholics are engaging in criminal behavior so that's different. But that's really not different at all. The law is just a codification of what a sufficiently powerful group (majority?) thinks is wrong. Before Lawrence v. Texas was decided in 2003, many gays engaged in illegal, which was why Lawrence and Garner were arrested. Besides what I'm talking about is the belief that it is more important to hide the abusive priests.
Blashyrkh wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:32 pm
I moved to Utah when I was 13. I was never accepted amongst the Utah LDS community because of my Slayer t-shirts and long hair. I had parents forbid their daughters from dating me and their sons from hanging out with me and a Bishop who wouldn't even let me pass the sacrament until I cut my hair despite the fact that I was indeed "worthy" to do so. I got over it.
I'm sorry you had trouble fitting in as a teen and glad you got over it.

But isn't this just allowing abuse to propagate by doing nothing? It's easy but it's not helpful.

Going back to my Catholic example, we can just tell the victims of priestly abuse to "get over it". Richard Dawkins has said just that for what he considers mild forms of pedophilia. Victims of child sexual abuse in British boarding schools or by priests should just get over it.

It's not a stance I can support, though. Allowing the abuse to continue and telling the victims to get over it is certainly one approach. I prefer to try and improve things so that children don't have to continue enduring that and just get over it. Nor do I think the victims shouldn't receive compensation for the misdeeds of the Catholic leaders.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Jeffret » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:10 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:41 am
I have moved on. So should you.
So far you're not sticking that flounce very well. I'm not seeing how you've moved on. I accept that I'm still interested in this topic, but for someone who has moved on, you seem awfully concerned about it.

And for someone who is mightily concerned about, "demanding that a group of free people accept something that they think is wrong" you're sure committed to telling free people what they should accept and do.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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alas
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by alas » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:20 am

For me, being involved in the ways I want the world to change for the benefit of us all is the difference between being out there fighting to make the world a better place and hiding under a rock and not caring that people get hurt.

And Blashyrkh, I was also not accepted by Utah culture, not because I moved to Utah from out of state where styles are different, but because my family was poor and I was wearing my big brother’s hand me downs...in the late 50s when girls had to dress like girls, in ruffles and lace, there I was in a worn out boys shirt with my skirt. I could probably compare blow by blow with you to see who got hurt the most, but that helps nobody. I could also crawl under my rock and whine because why should I try to change anybody else. But that also does no good.

So, first of all I try to understand and I try to be understood. You have refused to answer question in my attempts to understand your position, and as often as people here have tried to understand you, or get you to understand us, you just keep repeating yourself. So, you are just trying to force others to change and I can’t even respect that. Your approach is different than mine. So what? Get over it.

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Jeffret
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Jeffret » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:49 am

alas wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:20 am
Your approach is different than mine. So what? Get over it.
:!:
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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wtfluff
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by wtfluff » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:58 am

Jeffret wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:10 am
Blashyrkh wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:41 am
I have moved on. So should you.
So far you're not sticking that flounce very well. I'm not seeing how you've moved on. I accept that I'm still interested in this topic, but for someone who has moved on, you seem awfully concerned about it.

And for someone who is mightily concerned about, "demanding that a group of free people accept something that they think is wrong" you're sure committed to telling free people what they should accept and do.
Irony... It's completely lost on some folks, eh?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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Jeffret
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Jeffret » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:39 am

Newme's whole post is a mess of inaccurate, incorrect, and biased information. I was going to refrain from replying but I decided to do the respectful thing of paying attention to it and it's such a mess. In case anyone else is interested in the problems here are some of my notes.
Newme wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:44 am
2) The anus is not designed for sex but for poop to exit.
Completely baseless and wrong. The anus was never designed. It evolved. And as always this comment completely ignores women. And straight anal sex, which certainly has a much larger occurrence.
Child of lesbian couple speaks out against gay marriage
http://www.dennyburk.com/child-of-lesbi ... -marriage/
Robert Oscar Lopez is one seriously messed up dude. It's hard to tell just how he got to that point. He would probably be much better off if he abandoned his religious beliefs and admitted he's gay. Among his oddities he writes terrible, explicit gay novels.
"Why Children Need Both A Mother And A Father"
https://www.focusonthefamily.com/social ... -need-both
Broken link. Comes from Focus on the Family, which doesn't require any further explanation.
"Why Children Need a Male and Female Parent” - Glenn T. Stanton
http://www.wordfoundations.com/wp-conte ... tanton.pdf
Glenn Stanton is Director for Family Formation Studies, Focus on the Family.
“Every child need a mum” – A gay man speaks out against gay marriage"
“I don’t want to see children being engineered for same-sex couples where there is either a mom missing or a dad missing,” Mainwaring explained. “Somebody needs to stand up for the rights and needs of children in an age when the selfishness of adults seems to be trumping those rights.”
https://ynaija.com/every-child-need-a-m ... -marriage/
Doug Mainwaring is another prominent anti-gay (such as it is) attacking everyone else for his problems, which would be much improved if he'd abandon his religious beliefs and stop hating himself.
Kids of Gay Parents More Likely to Suffer Mental Problems, Study Shows
https://www.charismanews.com/us/48331-k ... tudy-shows
"Researchers found that 17 percent of children with same-sex parents had serious emotional problems compared to 7 percent of children with a mom and dad."
Charisma News, Catholic University, and The Ruth Institute are clear indications of the prejudices here. The actual study doesn't disappoint our expectations as it is deeply flawed.
Study: Children of Parents in Same-Sex Relationships Face Greater Risks
The results reveal numerous, consistent differences, especially between the children of women who have had a lesbian relationship and those with still-married (heterosexual) biological parents. The results are typically robust in multivariate contexts as well, suggesting far greater diversity in lesbian-parent household experiences than convenience-sample studies of lesbian families have revealed.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9X12000610

"According to data from the New Family Structures Study, led by Mark Regnerus at the University of Texas at Austin, children raised by homosexual parents are dramatically more likely than peers raised by married heterosexual parents to suffer from a host of social problems. Among them are strong tendencies, as adults, to exhibit poor impulse control; suffer from depression and thoughts of suicide; need mental health therapy; identify themselves as homosexual; choose cohabitation; be unfaithful to partners; contract sexually transmitted diseases; be sexually molested; have lower income levels; drink to get drunk; and smoke tobacco and marijuana."
Mark Regnerus's New Family Structures Study was so bad in every imaginable way it led to multiple rebuttals. The data was useless and could in no way support Regnerus's conclusions. A federal judge ruled it was "not credible".
Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay ‘Marriage’ in Federal Court
“I wasn’t surrounded by average heterosexual couples,” she says in her court brief.  “Dad’s partners slept and ate in our home, and they took me along to meeting places in the LGBT communities. I was exposed to overt sexual activities like sodomy, nudity, pornography, group sex, sadomasochism and the ilk.”
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/la ... eral-court
I wondered when B.N. Klein (by whatever alias) would get dragged into this. It was inevitable. Her loathing for herself and her parents wasn't really caused by her dad being gay.


I've run out of interest on documenting all those things, but that should be sufficient.


In contrast to the terrible studies of Regnerus, Sullins, and others, good, solid, well-designed studies show that lesbian couples make for the best parents. (Actually, the studies do show better results for lesbian couples, but when other complicating factors are eliminated, the results for gay, lesbian, and straight couples are all equivalent within the error range of the studies.)
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: I choose love, full stop.

Post by Jeffret » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:58 am

OK, a couple more caught my attention while I'm waiting for something else.
Newme wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:44 am
Michael Glatze, ex homosexual and ex-“gay rights” leader said, “Homosexuality is death and I choose life.” Those practicing homosexuality - especially men - have much higher rates of STDS, mental illness, AIDS and other health complications associated with attempting to misuse their anatomy.
From Wikipedia: "Glatze turned toward Christianity after a health scare due to palpitations.[1] Worried that he was affected by the same heart condition which claimed his father's life, he sought medical help. The palpitations turned out to be due to anemia, caused by celiac disease.[8] He joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the first half of 2007[9] but left the church shortly thereafter.[1]" The (brief) connection to the Church caught my attention.
1. Homosexuality is not ever truly sex but involves fetishes, because sex involves the sexual organs of each, and homosexuality must resort to subsitutes... fetishes. (Fetish: any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation. ) Anal sex is such a fetish. Some fetishes cause no harm, but anal sex can cause anal fissures, anal cancer, colon rupture and bacterial infections.
It's hard to calculate just how many ways this is wrong. I won't bother trying to enumerate them all -- many of them have been well-described previously. One item, though, I don't recall seeing before.

By this definition, all human sex (or at least any decent sex) is fetish. Why The Brain Is Our Most Important Sex Organ. Or, our skin as our biggest sex organ. Or maybe some of us straights have even used our lips. Or tongue.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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