Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

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Red Ryder
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:08 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:58 am
I headed on over to ldsfreedomforum to see what they had to say and was blown away by this post

Matchmaker wrote: ↑Perhaps most, if not all, of the General Authorities have been mislead and kept in the dark by corrupt money managers whom they have trusted in the past, and now that they know more about the possible extent of the mismanagement of surplus tithing funds, they will make some sweeping changes. I have faith in the First Presidency and the 12.


Aprhys wrote: Wait. What? You have faith in a group of men who claim to be prophets, seers, and revelators. Whom many LDS believe have direct communication with the Lord, and yet have been "mislead" by corrupt money managers? Wow. just wow.
Some of the GA’s were in the know. Henry B Eyring oversaw EPA committees according The the Letter To An IRS Director. Some knew, some did not.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

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Not Buying It
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Not Buying It » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:20 am

Tell you what, though, this is what the Church is:
643E1D41-B2F5-42EF-9D2C-10A4770FDE68.jpeg
643E1D41-B2F5-42EF-9D2C-10A4770FDE68.jpeg (23.96 KiB) Viewed 9454 times
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:01 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:48 am
Don’t get your hopes up people. First off, the membership doesn’t care, most of them probably buy the idea that the Church needs to horde money for the Second Coming, however stupid the idea sounds to the rest of the world. Second, the Church has an army of lawyers to keep crap from hitting the fan. Third, the current leadership in the White House loves to pander to religious groups and would have no hesitation in calling off the IRS, unless the President thinks it will embarrass Mitt Romney, he’s unpredictable that way. Fourth, Scientology has demonstrated that fraudulent religions have ways of beating the IRS, and the Church is at least as savvy legally as they are. Fifth, to the members this is just more persecution by Satan and his minions.

By the keys of prophecy with which I have been endowed, and in the name of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I prophesy this will be a Nothingburger.
After watching the 77 minute video, reading the documents and the article again, I'm afraid I must agree with NBI on this one. As much as it confirms a lot of what I think and feel, it ain't going to convince most diehard members, they will simply be proud of how their church has "prepared for the Second Coming so well," members will continue to clean the meetinghouse toilets, continue to fund their own childrens' activities, missions and the like, all the while paying tithing on their gross and giving a generous fast offering. And that's fine, that's their choice, and the machine will just keep on pumpin' out the dolla bills. And for whatever I think morally about an organization squeezing more money out of its members while sitting on a hoard of cash, they have smart money managers and lawyers that will get them out of this mess. No question about it.

However, as the number one trending story on the Washington Post right now, even pushing out this impeachment stuff, it's going to have some ripple effect amongst the shading NOM members, and definitely missionary work is going to continue to be a problem, at least in North America. For example, an anecdotal story - a friend emailed me about the Post article, and was incensed that their bishop on Sunday tried to squeeze them for more fast offering funds. That's going to be the reaction of more members, methinks, even as those who are blissfully unaware of these matters will submit to the tithing settlement shakedown.

So while I don't think this is insignificant, it's certainly not the smoking gun that it's being sold as.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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jfro18
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by jfro18 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:09 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:01 am
So while I don't think this is insignificant, it's certainly not the smoking gun that it's being sold as.
100% agree

This was never going to shake the faith of TBMs because they'll just ignore the details and focus on the "gotta be ready for the end times" narratie.

It will likely add to the shelves of those who are seeing some of the problems with the church, and might be what breaks some people if they're near the end anyway.

But it's a PR disaster as it's trending nationwide, which the church just does not need right now... and it really will make some members doubt the need for tithing, because the church clearly has no need for it.

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blazerb
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by blazerb » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:27 am

jfro18 wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:09 am
... and it really will make some members doubt the need for tithing, because the church clearly has no need for it.
To quote what I was always told and what I told people on my mission: God does not need tithing, the members need tithing to increase their faith. What crap.

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MoPag
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by MoPag » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:28 am

jfro18 wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:09 am

But it's a PR disaster as it's trending nationwide, which the church just does not need right now... and it really will make some members doubt the need for tithing, because the church clearly has no need for it.
^^^Tender Mercies!!!! :lol: :lol:

Can't wait to hear what our boi Eric Hawkins has to say about this.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Hagoth
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Hagoth » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:57 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:58 am
I headed on over to ldsfreedomforum to see what they had to say and was blown away by this post

Matchmaker wrote: ↑Perhaps most, if not all, of the General Authorities have been mislead and kept in the dark by corrupt money managers whom they have trusted in the past, and now that they know more about the possible extent of the mismanagement of surplus tithing funds, they will make some sweeping changes. I have faith in the First Presidency and the 12.


Aprhys wrote: Wait. What? You have faith in a group of men who claim to be prophets, seers, and revelators. Whom many LDS believe have direct communication with the Lord, and yet have been "mislead" by corrupt money managers? Wow. just wow.
I suspect that a significant amount of those holdings are being transferred to a facility in Detroit that can build a bus large enough to accommodate as many people as necessary beneath its undercarriage.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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græy
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by græy » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:07 am

I read the the headline to my DW last night and she immediately told me she didn't want to hear it and left the room. Later she asked if we had paid our tithing this month and was sad when I told her we had not. :roll:
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

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græy
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by græy » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:21 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:01 am
Not Buying It wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:48 am
Don’t get your hopes up people. First off, the membership doesn’t care, most of them probably buy the idea that the Church needs to horde money for the Second Coming, however stupid the idea sounds to the rest of the world. Second, the Church has an army of lawyers to keep crap from hitting the fan. Third, the current leadership in the White House loves to pander to religious groups and would have no hesitation in calling off the IRS, unless the President thinks it will embarrass Mitt Romney, he’s unpredictable that way. Fourth, Scientology has demonstrated that fraudulent religions have ways of beating the IRS, and the Church is at least as savvy legally as they are. Fifth, to the members this is just more persecution by Satan and his minions.
So while I don't think this is insignificant, it's certainly not the smoking gun that it's being sold as.
Agreed on both accounts.

The most likely scenario from this point on is that the lawyers shut everything down and we never hear another peep about any of it. The IRS is underfunded and understaffed to take on $100B worth of lawyers and money managers. To say nothing about the fact that the managers hired by the church are probably better educated and much more motivated to win than those working for the IRS.

Worst case scenario for the church, the IRS does investigate and finds some minor infractions (not significant enough to warrant losing 501C3) for which EP pays a fine, none of which will ever make any sort of splash in the press and the church continues on like nothing happened.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

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2bizE
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by 2bizE » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:35 am

New theory:
The church has purposefully leaked this information to pull attention away from the Trump impeachment.
~2bizE

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Red Ryder
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:36 am

The Panama papers were 1,000 times more damning and yet nobody cared enough and it blew over.

If the church is like a big block of government cheese, this will just slice off another layer of membership.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

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2bizE
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by 2bizE » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:40 am

græy wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:07 am
I read the the headline to my DW last night and she immediately told me she didn't want to hear it and left the room. Later she asked if we had paid our tithing this month and was sad when I told her we had not. :roll:
Try this one...the church has taken your tithing and invested it. The church now makes more profit off your tithing than actually paying tithing...essentially, there is no need to pay tithing any longer as your tithing seed has now blossomed and is covering the need to pay future tithing...ah the beauty of compounding interest.
~2bizE

Mackman
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Mackman » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:42 am

Yea Trump should join the church as they are both great liars !!!!!!!

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Not Buying It
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Not Buying It » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:47 am

Remember that time the Church was asking the members for donations to build a memorial at some site on the Susquehanna River that may or may not have been the spot where the Priesthood may or may not have been restored? $100 billion would have built a pretty nice memorial with plenty of billions left over.

That's just one example of many. Think of all the times they ask members for money, ask for free labor, when they raised the monthly payments for missionaries, etc. and etc. while they are sitting on a $100 billion pile of money. Think of all the poor families who have to come up with money to send their kids to Youth Conference, Scout Camp, etc. The Church had plenty of money to pay for those things the whole time. It could have paid for a lot more than it did - and made a conscious decision to horde its money instead. $100 billion could do a lot for some members who really need it.

It says a lot about how little respect the Church has for members that it could afford to do so much and chooses not to.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Evil_Bert
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Evil_Bert » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:50 am

Whoohoo! Maybe we can beat the Catholics in who is the richest?
Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Brent
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Brent » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:01 am

Let's mangle an old saying:

1 million dollars is a lot of money...100 billion is a statistic.

When dealing with members I would only suggest they cannot comprehend 100 billion dollars.

Better to ask them to read Mormon Chapter 8 with you.

In particular:

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that bmisery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

Either the Book of Mormon is true or it isn't. If it's true then who is Mormon speaking to if not us; now.

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2bizE
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by 2bizE » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:17 am

Maybe this much money is needed to pay off lawsuits stemming from sexual predator bishops and SP?
~2bizE

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Hagoth
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Hagoth » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:21 am

What disturbed me most about the article was that in the limited filings Ensign was required to submit they claimed to be operating at a loss.

As far as the top leaders not knowing about it, I find it hard to believe they didn't know how they were funding Citycreek.

My first reaction when I heard this story is that the church can recover from the most severe setback imaginable. They have $7 billion rolling in every year. Even if they had to pay all of that $100 billion in back taxes they are still operating with a $1 billion annual surplus. They will just cut Ensign free and start banking it somewhere else. What other corporation gets that kind of income without producing a product?

This will look like significant validation to us skeptics and some fence-sitters will abandon ship, but the faithful will probably double-down and wonder if they need to pay more tithing to demonstrate their devotion in the face of Satan's attacks on the church.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Hagoth » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:27 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:47 am
Remember that time the Church was asking the members for donations to build a memorial at some site on the Susquehanna River that may or may not have been the spot where the Priesthood may or may not have been restored?
Remember when the church told the members in Africa that they could not help them continue living because "we are not a wealthy church?"
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Hagoth » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:31 am

Brent wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:01 am

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that bmisery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.
Too bad that won't fit on a t-shirt of bumper sticker. Mormons don't read their scriptures for content, they read them as a demonstration of devotion and cherry pick them for lesson soundbites.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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