Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

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Newme
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Newme » Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:53 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:59 am
Tacenda wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:09 am
It will make the believer despise the members that speak up. It will further divide the non believers and the believers.
Waiting for the new testimonies to show up on Fast Sundays proclaiming, "I believe the Corporation is true".
;) And technically, that is a more true statement since the legal name involves corporation.

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Newme
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Newme » Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:59 pm

2bizE wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:04 am
Newme wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:33 pm
jfro18 wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:00 pm
FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD, YES PLEASE.

Garments are the worst part of Mormonism and a constant reminder of the control they hold over you and those you love.

And they are ugly as sin.
How weird to know what each other’s underwear looks like. :lol: Where else could you take a chapel full of people and they all have the same underwear? We all look goofy and know we all do... or did - for those of us who ditched them. This cult is funny when it isn’t heart-breaking.
You may have seen this funny joke posted on Reddit:
“4 LDS TBMs and 1 exmormon walk into a Victoria Secret.
The 4 TBM's say "We all should buy matching underwear".

The Ex Mormon says "You already have matching underwear".

Laughter all the way around

True story, happened in Las Vegas last weekend”.
:lol:
I know nobody asked my opinion, but I might go back to cult-underwear IF the church changed to something that actually made me feel more endowed...

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Comes with invisible jet!

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Newme
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Newme » Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:08 pm

blazerb wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:21 pm
moksha wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:59 am
Tacenda wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:09 am
It will make the believer despise the members that speak up. It will further divide the non believers and the believers.
Waiting for the new testimonies to show up on Fast Sundays proclaiming, "I believe the Corporation is true".
I've already seen stuff online that amounts to, "I know that $100 billion is true."
:lol:
Is this like moving the goal post?

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Newme
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Newme » Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:12 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:02 pm
There was a good interview on radio west about this topic today. Doug Fabrizio interviewed a tax law professor who essentially said this is somewhat unprecedented in law and the worst case for the church is Ensign Peak Advisors loses their tax exempt status. Church itself wouldn't.
Hm - it’s as if the church expected to eventually be caught - maybe THEY are surprised it took this long.

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Newme
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Newme » Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:16 pm

w2mz wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:24 pm
Spicy McHaggis wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:02 pm
Chuck the Furch!

A few days later and I'm still just as pissed.
Same here. It is so frustrating that I can’t just say “F” it and leave the church. My family is so indoctrinated. Its not right that the church can hold my family and my finances hostage.

Just fuming.
I still remember the day when DH & I argued for a while about this. It helps that we know and have visited very poor areas in foreign countries and I made the case that our tithes should go to them (& negotiated that we’d raise our kids with the church). He gave me hell for a bit, but hasn’t mentioned anything about tithes for several years - it’s as if he likes this arrangement better now, despite initially objecting.

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Hagoth
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Hagoth » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:53 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:02 pm
There was a good interview on radio west about this topic today. Doug Fabrizio interviewed a tax law professor who essentially said this is somewhat unprecedented in law and the worst case for the church is Ensign Peak Advisors loses their tax exempt status. Church itself wouldn't.
The interviewee on the IOT episode (forgot his name) says that the process of removing that tax exempt status, considering inevitable appeals, will take 7-10 years and may result in the church having to fork over about $15 billion. In that time the fund will continue growing by $8 billion/year. So it's really just a minor inconvenience to the church.

Who wants to take my bet that the church just started another "charitable" fund in case they have to shift their hording activities there instead. Even in the worst case scenario, they just start that clock again. Even in the worst scenario they bank billions of dollars.

He also pointed out that the office where these investigations are made is in Ogden, Utah and is 90% staffed by Mormons. I question whether that statistic is accurate, but it's easy to imagine how foot dragging could extend the process even longer.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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alas
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by alas » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:26 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:53 am
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:02 pm
There was a good interview on radio west about this topic today. Doug Fabrizio interviewed a tax law professor who essentially said this is somewhat unprecedented in law and the worst case for the church is Ensign Peak Advisors loses their tax exempt status. Church itself wouldn't.
The interviewee on the IOT episode (forgot his name) says that the process of removing that tax exempt status, considering inevitable appeals, will take 7-10 years and may result in the church having to fork over about $15 billion. In that time the fund will continue growing by $8 billion/year. So it's really just a minor inconvenience to the church.

Who wants to take my bet that the church just started another "charitable" fund in case they have to shift their hording activities there instead. Even in the worst case scenario, they just start that clock again. Even in the worst scenario they bank billions of dollars.

He also pointed out that the office where these investigations are made is in Ogden, Utah and is 90% staffed by Mormons. I question whether that statistic is accurate, but it's easy to imagine how foot dragging could extend the process even longer.
My three kids all work at Ogden IRS, and, no it is not 90% LDS.

And even if it was, makes no difference, because the decisions will not be made at a “worker” level. This would not even be given to the grunts who run audits on businesses or not for profits. I would trust average IRS workers to be fair, but they will never see this. This will be decided at executive levels by people who are bought and paid for. Expecting the church to get a fair and just hearing is like expecting the Senate to fairly judge tRump, when bought and paid for McConnell has already said he will work closely with tRump to acquit. As OJ so throughly demonstrated, money buys justice in our country. The church will simply use a tiny fraction of that money to see that this is never properly investigated. You can purchase just about anybody with a million $$$$$ campaign contribution, or get the uncooperative fired.

Sorry to paint such a cynical picture, but more sorry that it seems to be true.

Believe the line in the temple that says you can buy anything in this world with money.

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2bizE
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by 2bizE » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:38 am

The first presidency and the French guy have released a message and videos to clarify everything.
Summary of message:
...."these aren't the billions you are looking for....move along..."

Here is one of the videos:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=532j-186xEQ
~2bizE

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nibbler
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by nibbler » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:21 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:16 pm
Let’s forget about this for a second.

What new policy or much needed change will be released to shift attention away?

Please... no garments! no garments! No garments!!!!!!
They sent out that email that explained how the church uses tithing and donations. So...

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There, fixed it!
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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Just This Guy
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Just This Guy » Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:49 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:53 am
He also pointed out that the office where these investigations are made is in Ogden, Utah and is 90% staffed by Mormons. I question whether that statistic is accurate, but it's easy to imagine how foot dragging could extend the process even longer.

I'm sure they have a lawyer of some sort advising this case. In the case they should be able to demand that anyone who is LDS would have to recluse themselves from the case, otherwise their objectivity is suspect and an easy appeal.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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blazerb
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by blazerb » Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:57 pm

I just want to make one more post to work through how I'm feeling. Many have already expressed something along these lines. I am upset that I was asked to sacrifice, to give up a little nicer Christmas or a fancier vacation, when the church was sitting on so much money. I know that my "sacrifice" was pretty paltry. I never had to choose between tithing and rent or food. I ache for those pressure to pay when basic human needs are on the line. Regardless, I gave some things up. Meanwhile, the church is very aggressive in interpreting tax law. It tells mission presidents not to say anything about the "reimbursements" they get, in part I am sure to keep the IRS from looking too closely at what the church is doing there. GA's are not really asked to sacrifice. I guess giving up a 7 figure salary for a low 6 figure salary is an adjustment, but I have a hard time sympathizing. (To be fair, someone who has gone hungry to pay tithing might think I have no right to complain. Ok.) I am sure that no GA ever shows up on Saturday morning to clean the church.

Then we get talked down to by the GA's. Bednar mocked people who feel busy saying that they only spend an hour preparing an RS lesson when he spends some crazy amount of time on his calling. He completely ignores that the rest of us are working at jobs we can't afford to lose. He can't get fired. The only way a GA gets fired is if he is caught getting too friendly with someone.

So then we find out that the church has enough money to completely fund church activities in a typical year from the interest on their investment fund. Why shouldn't we be upset? We could be funding hospitals and schools. We could be putting in plumbing in villages. We could be funding research to develop technology that helps people. We could be buying mosquito nets, if nothing else. It isn't that the church has money in reserve. I expect that. But the scale and secrecy really tick me off. I keep hearing people say that we need to have a discussion in the church about how much in reserve is appropriate, but that discussion can never happen in today's church. If I brought it up in SS or PH, I'd get shut down really fast. I might feel guilty bringing it up anyway because I no longer contribute to the church, but I used to. I gave a lot for very little benefit for myself or those around me.

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Hagoth
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Hagoth » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:10 pm

blazerb wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:57 pm
We could be funding hospitals and schools. We could be putting in plumbing in villages. We could be funding research to develop technology that helps people. We could be buying mosquito nets...
Or we could supplement the mall so it would be easier to give the Apple Store free rent to lure it away from Gateway and drive another nail in that competitor's coffin.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Random
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:24 pm

Emower wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:32 pm
I dont think this is a nothing-burger to those people who are on the fence about church behavior. What this shows is a disregard for humanity. Folks on the fence see through the end-of-days justification and quickly realize what 7 billion annually could do for the world. And that the church is actively choosing not to drill those wells in Africa. Over the next few days I am going to feel out my TBM relatives, but I wouldn't say its a nothing-burger. It may not bring the church down, but cmon people, quit expecting that. If your expectation is that something is going to make the church implode, then yes, everything becomes a nothing-burger. But if your expectation is that the church will become less and less meaningful and influential in normal people's lives than this is a "yuuuge" win for that.
Exactly. I don't think any one thing will bring the Church to its knees (where it always should have been). I think the things that have been brought to light over the last several years, and what will continue to be brought to light is what will do it - at least as far as the members go.

My tipping point was the gay policy of a few years ago. Someone else's tipping point is going to be something else. Inexorably, the Church will do something that will chase out nearly everyone. Then infighting might help it implode from that point on.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:25 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:14 pm
Death by 1000 PR cuts.
That's exactly what it looks like to me.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:41 pm

blazerb wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:17 pm
They want to keep their operation functioning even if there are very few tithe-paying members keeping the temples open.
It definitely looks like they are preparing for the time when "the church may [need to] stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world".

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 78:14)
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:47 pm

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:48 am
There will not be a single linchpin to devastate the church. It is not a house of cards. But slow and methodical erosion will continue.
Exactly. Bit by bit, inch by inch, bite by bite.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:56 pm

blazerb wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:57 pm
I never had to choose between tithing and rent or food.
There was more than once when I paid tithing instead of bills or food.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:08 pm

Brent wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:01 am
Better to ask them to read Mormon Chapter 8 with you.
etc.
I would think that any true believer in the Book of Mormon, if they know what it says, would be shaking in their boots.

the wearing of very fine apparel

your churches, yea,
even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts

ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches,
more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted

why have ye polluted the holy church of God?

Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ?

Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?


Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life,
and yet suffer
the hungry
the needy
the naked
the sick
the afflicted to pass by you
and notice them not?

the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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nibbler
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by nibbler » Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:28 pm

It's like having this friend where you show up to their house to find that their bookshelves are made out of old plastic grocery crates, they have an industrial wire spool for a dining room table, they're sleeping on a stained mattress that has a spring poking out of it and it's laying directly on the floor, they don't have toiletries, their water is shut off because they haven't paid the water bill, the kitchen cupboards are bare, and a raccoon family has taken up residence in the half bathroom. When you go out to eat with your friend they only get one item off the dollar menu and eat a dozen packets of ketchup because they're still hungry. Their car is 20 years old, breaks down often, and you have to give them rides all the time.

You decide to bend over backwards to help this friend. You buy them furniture, you pay their bills so they can get their water turned back on, you buy them groceries, you chase off the raccoons, you treat them to a nice dinner at a restaurant every so often, and after several years of tightening your belt, forgoing vacations, and eating ramen you're able to save up enough to buy them by a car...

Then you find out they've had $100,000,000,000.00 in the bank the whole time.

The church is like that friend... except the church tells you you'll burn in hell for eternity if you don't help them out.
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:31 pm

nibbler wrote:It's like having this friend where you show up to their house to find that their bookshelves are made out of old plastic grocery crates, they have an industrial wire spool for a dining room table, they're sleeping on a stained mattress that has a spring poking out of it and it's laying directly on the floor, they don't have toiletries, their water is shut off because they haven't paid the water bill, the kitchen cupboards are bare, and a raccoon family has taken up residence in the half bathroom. When you go out to eat with your friend they only get one item off the dollar menu and eat a dozen packets of ketchup because they're still hungry. Their car is 20 years old, breaks down often, and you have to give them rides all the time.

You decide to bend over backwards to help this friend. You buy them furniture, you pay their bills so they can get their water turned back on, you buy them groceries, you chase off the raccoons, you treat them to a nice dinner at a restaurant every so often, and after several years of tightening your belt, forgoing vacations, and eating ramen you're able to save up enough to buy them by a car...

Then you find out they've had $100,000,000,000.00 in the bank the whole time.

The church is like that friend... except the church tells you you'll burn in hell for eternity if you don't help them out.
Having worked with facilities management groups during my tenure on the HC, I can tell you those poor (literally and figuratively) FM managers and staff have got to be totally pissed off right now.

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