Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
Reuben
Posts: 1235
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Reuben » Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:35 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:56 am
Remember that story about when Jesus walked past the money changers on his way to pay tithing to the Sadducees and felt proud that they had managed to turn the temple into a thriving business so they could stockpile plenty of funds for him when he returns someday?
Yes! Somehow I always imagined him wearing a suit in that story, too.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

User avatar
Random
Posts: 1182
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:44 pm

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:27 pm

EternityIsNow wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:39 pm
I do think this is a game changer, but in an unpredictable way.
I think you're right.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

User avatar
Random
Posts: 1182
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:44 pm

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:28 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:29 am
Also wonder how their annual accounting report in conference will change.
I thought they stopped reporting that in general conference, and that you had to go to the Church's website to get the noninformation now?
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 4472
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Hagoth » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:05 pm

Random wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:28 pm
Just This Guy wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:29 am
Also wonder how their annual accounting report in conference will change.
I thought they stopped reporting that in general conference, and that you had to go to the Church's website to get the noninformation now?
They stopped announcing membership statistics. but once a year they still announce that they have done a full accounting and that they are happy with the results. Since there is no information given I doubt anyone will care much if they drop the pretense altogether.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
Newme
Posts: 830
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:43 pm

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Newme » Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:31 am

I hope justice is served. But I hope so not just for this rich organization but so many others who abuse nonprofit status to avoid taxes and thereby put the burden on those more honest.

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 4472
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Hagoth » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:22 pm

Newme wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:31 am
I hope justice is served. But I hope so not just for this rich organization but so many others who abuse nonprofit status to avoid taxes and thereby put the burden on those more honest.
Amen!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
Random
Posts: 1182
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:44 pm

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:52 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:05 pm
They stopped announcing membership statistics. but once a year they still announce that they have done a full accounting and that they are happy with the results. Since there is no information given I doubt anyone will care much if they drop the pretense altogether.
Oh, okay. I agree with you. The nonreporting wouldn't be missed, since they say essentially nothing but, "We're good, carry on."
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

User avatar
Random
Posts: 1182
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:44 pm

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:53 pm

Newme wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:31 am
I hope justice is served. But I hope so not just for this rich organization but so many others who abuse nonprofit status to avoid taxes and thereby put the burden on those more honest.
and, especially, a huge burden on the poorest of the members. :cry:
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

User avatar
Linked
Posts: 1080
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Linked » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:45 pm

I've struggled with what I think about the $100B and the church stockpiling money. In some ways it is pretty awesome that the church is able to do that. It wasn't that long ago when the church was struggling to stay afloat financially. And while the top guys get paid ~$120,000/year, there doesn't appear to be any evidence that they are tapping into the BILLIONS $$$$ that is sitting there for their own personal gain.

My beef with the situation comes with the utter lack of transparency. The church demands money in the name of God from children, widows, underemployed, and starving people with the threat of eternal damnation. They demand it while sitting on a giant pile of cash that no one knew about. They insinuate that they are a seriously charitable organization without providing receipts. They act poor when someone requests help (Zimbabwe). Since the church stopped needing the money they spend all their breath proclaiming the blessing of paying tithing. These people should at least have the ability to access some basic financial information so they can decide if they agree that God needs them to give their money to the church.

I suspect that the biggest fallout from this will be that when a TBM goes to God in prayer about tithing many more will get the answer that God doesn't need them to pay as much.

And it is gross how the church only performs masturbatory charitable acts. The only group they are really helping is themselves.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
Emower
Posts: 1037
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:35 pm
Location: Carson City

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Emower » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:53 pm

Linked wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:45 pm
And it is gross how the church only performs masturbatory charitable acts. The only group they are really helping is themselves.
Maybe its just me and my cynical mind, but I think most (not all) charitable acts are masturbatory in some form or another. Do people give because it makes them feel good? Because it fits with what they view of their personality? Because they want to honor some dead person? Because it helps their tribe? Dont get me wrong, I appreciate charity but if you negatively view charitable acts that seem to help the person doing it you will be ruling out a large bit of charity that happens.

User avatar
Linked
Posts: 1080
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Linked » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:21 pm

Emower wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:53 pm
Linked wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:45 pm
And it is gross how the church only performs masturbatory charitable acts. The only group they are really helping is themselves.
Maybe its just me and my cynical mind, but I think most (not all) charitable acts are masturbatory in some form or another. Do people give because it makes them feel good? Because it fits with what they view of their personality? Because they want to honor some dead person? Because it helps their tribe? Dont get me wrong, I appreciate charity but if you negatively view charitable acts that seem to help the person doing it you will be ruling out a large bit of charity that happens.
That's an interesting point. Yes, being charitable typically benefits the giver, in the ways you have mentioned and probably more. Let's pretend we are economists. Maybe it would be better to use a difference of Help to the Receiver (HR) to Cost to the Giver (CG) or perhaps HR - Help to the Giver (HG) as a metric. HR-CG, HR-HG. Or perhaps we could use a single value of Net Help to the Giver (HGnet) where the cost to the giver is subtracted. A very high HR - HGnet would be a selfless charitable act, and a very negative HR - HGnet would be a masturbatory charitable act. This requires normalizing the value of money, time, emotional state, relationships, etc; good luck.

My issue is that the church spends very little (i.e. nothing, because they spend their members time and money) on things which do little to objectively help others, and most of the "good" things they do are meant to also help themselves. And it is gross. This all changes if you believe the church is the only path to heaven. Which is the most insidious part.

Compare this to someone who gets praised for really helping people. I pick Donovan Mitchell who plays basketball for the Utah Jazz. He was chatting with some kids after a game and he took the Beats headphones off of his head and put it on the kids head. The kid actually benefited. Donovan did too, his public and personal image got better. The headphones cost ~$200 (they could be part of a sponsorship deal, but he still could have turned it into $ if he wanted to). Donovan gives his signed warm up shoes away to a kid almost every game. The kid gets a once in a lifetime experience and a sweet souvenir. Donovan loses 30 seconds and his image gains. But as little as it costs him, this isn't something many people do.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

Arcturus
Posts: 281
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:10 pm

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Arcturus » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:54 pm

I initially thought that this whole $100b revelation would have little to no impact on TBMs. However, I perused the LDS Freedom Fighters forum today and was surprised to see a decent amount of concern expressed on the issue, mainly in terms of little charitable giving and transparency. I thought this was a pretty TBM'ish forum or am I wrong?
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 1839
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Palerider » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:06 pm

Emower wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:53 pm

Maybe its just me and my cynical mind, but I think most (not all) charitable acts are masturbatory in some form or another.
This may be true in some cases but as you say, it's certainly not in all. There are people who when they see others suffer they want to help out of the goodness or compassion of their hearts because they know what suffering is. They have been there themselves. They don't care whether the world sees what they do and gain nothing except the knowledge that they have relieved suffering for someone.

I suppose a cynic could say that the good Samaritan went away patting himself on the back but wouldn't that be projecting one's own character flaws onto someone they didn't even know?

I don't disagree that the institutional church probably does numerous things for it's own benefit and interest but I would hesitate to judge individuals with the extremely limited knowledge available to me.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
Emower
Posts: 1037
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:35 pm
Location: Carson City

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Emower » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:06 pm

Palerider wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:06 pm
I suppose a cynic could say that the good Samaritan went away patting himself on the back but wouldn't that be projecting one's own character flaws onto someone they didn't even know?
Oooooh, sick burn! But yeah, you are right. It is entirely unknowable what a person is doing charity for, even the church, IMO. I think it is possible to form an opinion about the church's charitable giving and whether it was genuine or not based on a track record, but we would need to know the full extent and I have not done that kind of research into the church's 2.2 billion that they have given away. The church also does not make it easy to find out.

User avatar
MoPag
Posts: 2314
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:05 pm

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by MoPag » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:40 pm

Remember when Rusty went to visit the Pope and brought him those cheap, crappy presents? I wonder how the Pope feels now, knowing how f--ing loaded Rusty really is.

Or probably he still doesn't care about Mormons. :lol:
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

User avatar
FiveFingerMnemonic
Posts: 1439
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:42 pm

MoPag wrote:Remember when Rusty went to visit the Pope and brought him those cheap, crappy presents? I wonder how the Pope feels now, knowing how f--ing loaded Rusty really is.

Or probably he still doesn't care about Mormons. Image
But that bike the next visitors brought totally overshadowed the mo gifts. Image

User avatar
MoPag
Posts: 2314
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:05 pm

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by MoPag » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:45 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:42 pm
MoPag wrote:Remember when Rusty went to visit the Pope and brought him those cheap, crappy presents? I wonder how the Pope feels now, knowing how f--ing loaded Rusty really is.

Or probably he still doesn't care about Mormons. Image
But that bike the next visitors brought totally overshadowed the mo gifts. Image
:lol: :lol:

Right?! Like I bet he was all "oh this little church gave me a little Jesus and a proclamation I can't read." **smiles and nods**

Later finds out they have literal 100 BILLION dollars. "WTF cheap a$$ Mormons!"
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 2644
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by wtfluff » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:54 pm

MoPag wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:40 pm
Or probably he still doesn't care about Mormons. :lol:
Kinda like ~99% of all the other humans on the planet?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

User avatar
Random
Posts: 1182
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:44 pm

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:10 am

Arcturus wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:54 pm
I initially thought that this whole $100b revelation would have little to no impact on TBMs. However, I perused the LDS Freedom Fighters forum today and was surprised to see a decent amount of concern expressed on the issue, mainly in terms of little charitable giving and transparency. I thought this was a pretty TBM'ish forum or am I wrong?
There are now a lot of people on there who are not TBM, but there were some on there that I know are TBM who were questioning the $100B. In fact, over the last year or so, I've seen some people get a little shaken in their firmness because of something or other the SL leaders have done/said. And I know that some other TBMs (not on LDSFF) were shaken a bit (family and/or friends of people I know).
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 3160
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by moksha » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:22 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:05 pm
... once a year they still announce that they have done a full accounting and that they are happy with the results.
They rub their hands together and say "Excellent!" when they contemplate the Ensign Peak accounts.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests