Do You Love the Lord?

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Linked
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Do You Love the Lord?

Post by Linked » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:29 am

We got a talk from a BP counselor yesterday. This is the counselor who interviews you and asks if there is anything else you want to disclose, then stares at you knowingly for 10 seconds. The first part of his talk went over the moral choices in your life that you should counsel with the bishop about. He listed the things in the handbook 1, like vasectomies. I have always thought that they should put the list in a place everyone can actually see it, so it was good he mentioned it. But the way he said it was very condescending, and implied that adults can't make their own life decisions. I suppose that is the church's view so that makes sense.

Later he talked about how the bishopric staffs the ward, and asked "If you love the Lord, how can you say no to a calling from him?" Because, you know, he speaks for God himself. That even turned my ultra-conforming DW off. He backed off a little bit by saying that if there are issues with the calling and it's not really working that you could talk to the bishop and he will usually make the right call (he would, bishop is a generally good guy). But ultimately he wants the members to take orders rather than decide about callings themselves. No adults allowed at church.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:45 pm

Linked wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:29 am
We got a talk from a BP counselor yesterday. This is the counselor who interviews you and asks if there is anything else you want to disclose, then stares at you knowingly for 10 seconds. The first part of his talk went over the moral choices in your life that you should counsel with the bishop about. He listed the things in the handbook 1, like vasectomies. I have always thought that they should put the list in a place everyone can actually see it, so it was good he mentioned it. But the way he said it was very condescending, and implied that adults can't make their own life decisions. I suppose that is the church's view so that makes sense.

Later he talked about how the bishopric staffs the ward, and asked "If you love the Lord, how can you say no to a calling from him?" Because, you know, he speaks for God himself. That even turned my ultra-conforming DW off. He backed off a little bit by saying that if there are issues with the calling and it's not really working that you could talk to the bishop and he will usually make the right call (he would, bishop is a generally good guy). But ultimately he wants the members to take orders rather than decide about callings themselves. No adults allowed at church.
Once you see how controlling and manipulative this kind of nonsense is, you can't un-see it. Like your DW, even Sis M would be put off by such tactics - she's actually said no a few times to callings, and I've only done it once!

But the infantilization of members is a real problem - we had a protracted discussion last night about a similar BP member in one of my kids' YSA wards, and nobody has much patience for these kinds of people, but nobody stands up to him either. Even my kid will just roll their eyes when he speaks, but generally falls in line. If people like him and your BP guy keep on this vein, they'll start losing more people than just you and me. So here's hoping both of them makes Bishop in a few years! :lol:
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Palerider
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by Palerider » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:08 pm

Linked wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:29 am
Later he talked about how the bishopric staffs the ward, and asked "If you love the Lord, how can you say no to a calling from him?" Because, you know, he speaks for God himself. That even turned my ultra-conforming DW off...........But ultimately he wants the members to take orders rather than decide about callings themselves. No adults allowed at church.
Reply:

If a young man told a young woman that the Lord wanted her to marry him would you expect her to say "yes" without getting her own answer from the Lord???

I do love the Lord and that's why I know he wouldn't expect me to just take your word for it that this calling is for me. I'll let you know....
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

Finallyfree
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by Finallyfree » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:14 pm

Linked wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:29 am
The first part of his talk went over the moral choices in your life that you should counsel with the bishop about. He listed the things in the handbook 1, like vasectomies.
This one has always sent me over the edge even before I figured out what I really thought. I had a vasectomy several years ago while I was still a TBM and actually in a bishopric. I never consulted with anyone except my wife and my doctor. It is nobodies business what I decide to do with my reproductive organs. I just can't believe that a church promoting "free agency" doesn't see the massive contradiction in that whole thing. It is an absolute shock to me that anyone goes along with it, that they actually go talk to their bishop about having their scrotum cut open and things cut and stitched!

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Hagoth
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:01 pm

Finallyfree wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:14 pm
I just can't believe that a church promoting "free agency" doesn't see the massive contradiction in that whole thing.
Because ultimately your free agency boils down to one choice: do what you are told or follow Satan. You are free to dig your own grave.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by wtfluff » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:14 pm

Linked wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:29 am
"If you love the Lord, how can you say no to a calling from him?"
I've been awaiting "his" call for a lifetime.

Silence.

I'm not dead yet, so any time he wants to show up...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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moksha
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by moksha » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:52 pm

Linked wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:29 am
He listed the things in the handbook 1, like vasectomies. But the way he said it was very condescending, and implied that adults can't make their own life decisions.
Vasectomies are a medically elective procedure and are not a moral issue of concern to the Church. Asking that question only shows how far down the rabbit hole of cultism the Church has gotten. Dignifying such a question with an answer would tend to make the Church even more cultish. The counselor insisting he is closer to God because of his position is another manifestation of this problem.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Red Ryder
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:58 pm

Here’s why vasectomies were once controlled by the church leadership:

God gives you reproductive abilities.

Church leaders speak on behalf of God.

Therefore you should consult God(via church leaders) if you should end your God given reproductive abilities.

Church leaders lose control when members start thinking and making decisions on their own.

My father in law pulled me aside after hearing I was scheduled for a V. He said, did you and (wife) consult the bishop? I said no?? Why would we, he’s a dentist??
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Linked
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by Linked » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:06 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:58 pm
My father in law pulled me aside after hearing I was scheduled for a V. He said, did you and (wife) consult the bishop? I said no?? Why would we, he’s a dentist??
Maybe he could hook you up with some laughing gas for the procedure.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

Wonderment
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by Wonderment » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:46 pm

Because ultimately your free agency boils down to one choice: do what you are told or follow Satan. You are free to dig your own grave.
That's pretty much what any church official means when he stares at you unblinkingly and meaningfully for 10 seconds. Linked, I am glad that you recognize these (offensive) actions for what they are.
As far as discussing vasectomies, that is just beyond the pale. It's nonsense. Since when did the church officials insert themselves into family planning decisions that are made between a husband, his wife, and a medical professional? Bull****. What's next, the bishop makes a home visit and goes snooping through the bathroom medicine cabinet and nightstand, looking for condoms?
Really, the more you become aware of this kind of spiritual abuse, the more difficult it is to unsee it. Linked, you've done well to recognize what is happening and to point it out.
How many churches demand that the husband discuss the topic of vasectomy with church officials? Wow, that's creepy. Not even the Roman Catholic church makes that demand, I don't think. -- Wndr.

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Jeffret
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by Jeffret » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:14 am

Wonderment wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:46 pm
How many churches demand that the husband discuss the topic of vasectomy with church officials? Wow, that's creepy. Not even the Roman Catholic church makes that demand, I don't think. -- Wndr.
Well, Catholics consider vasectomy a mortal sin, meaning it is never acceptable so there is no reason to discuss whether you should with your priest. If you have had a vasectomy you must confess it to a priest. There is disagreement about whether you need to have a reversal procedure to complete repentance.

While the Catholic position is well known, in the U.S.A., the majority of Catholics ignore what the Church says about birth control. The majority of Mormons don't know they're supposed to consult with their bishop about vasectomy or other birth control practices.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Advocate
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by Advocate » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:54 am

Jeffret wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:14 am
Wonderment wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:46 pm
How many churches demand that the husband discuss the topic of vasectomy with church officials? Wow, that's creepy. Not even the Roman Catholic church makes that demand, I don't think. -- Wndr.
Well, Catholics consider vasectomy a mortal sin, meaning it is never acceptable so there is no reason to discuss whether you should with your priest. If you have had a vasectomy you must confess it to a priest. There is disagreement about whether you need to have a reversal procedure to complete repentance.

While the Catholic position is well known, in the U.S.A., the majority of Catholics ignore what the Church says about birth control. The majority of Mormons don't know they're supposed to consult with their bishop about vasectomy or other birth control practices.
People in both religions just ignore the leaders and do what they want. I have a close catholic friend (attends mass weekly) that got a vasectomy. A TBM friend of mine got a vasectomy. When I asked him if he consulted with the bishop (this was back in my TBM days), he said no and if the Lord didn't want people to get vasectomies He should come out and say it. Since the Lord hadn't forbidden it, it must be ok.

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Corsair
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by Corsair » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:20 am

"Do you love the Lord?" is a pernicious question asked largely by organizations who firmly believe that they speak for God. It's right there in Article of Faith number 5:
We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
I have a lot of sympathy for bishops who have to staff a ward with volunteers, particularly when they figure out that "just say No" is an effective way to turn down a calling. Ward callings often come down to "people who did not say No". Primary callings are ever present and not everyone is excited to spend their church time with someone else's children.

It's a huge responsibility for a bishopric. Being able to invoke God is a solid tactic for convincing people to assist in a ward.

Mackman
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by Mackman » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:39 am

I used to feel guilty when I even considered turning down a calling. These days as mentioned I have learned to just say NO. The idea that the Bishop and his counselors are some how more connected to God and his will is ridiculous!!!!!!! I dont even know how I ever bought into that. A few months ago I showed my wife evidence of sexual abuses by Bishops via the Sam Young website and after a long 5 seconds she concluded it was just "anti mormon" stuff. The church has imo become more and more cultish over the years. All of us need to take back our lives by just saying NO and having church be on our terms not theirs.Tithing is another great example of cultish behavior especially when they go on about if you pay on net or gross as done in our branch two weeks ago. Tithing is a charitable contribution nothing more , they need to stop the extortion!!!!!!!!!!! The church wants to be seen as mainstream christianity but they refuse to act like it and give up any power. They want you to buy into their binary thinking of all of it is true or it's not!!! I say Bullshit !!!!

lostinmiddlemormonism
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by lostinmiddlemormonism » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:58 pm

Mackman wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:39 am

They want you to buy into their binary thinking of all of it is true or it's not!!!
I have had several people try that one on me...it's either true or it's not. My response to that is that if I am forced to choose between those two options only, then the answer is pretty simple really. Because the evidence is on the side of it's not.

-lost

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IT_Veteran
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Re: Do You Love the Lord?

Post by IT_Veteran » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:48 pm

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:58 pm
Mackman wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:39 am

They want you to buy into their binary thinking of all of it is true or it's not!!!
I have had several people try that one on me...it's either true or it's not. My response to that is that if I am forced to choose between those two options only, then the answer is pretty simple really. Because the evidence is on the side of it's not.

-lost
That kind of thinking is what actually allowed me to consider that the church might not be the what it claimed.

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