Strange things in the Bible

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stuck
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Strange things in the Bible

Post by stuck » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:01 pm

My wife recently discussed talking to our 3 year old about Satan. We were trying to decide perhaps how to approach the subject. I remember my parents reading to us bible stories from a children's bible and there being a picture of satan in there with hooves. I wasn't really scared but I think later I didn't like to discuss it thinking that he might start influencing me kind of like the boogie man that my cousins and I scared ourselves when we talked about him. My wife felt the same way and I stated that in my view I don't really believe in satan anymore. But I think we both thought it wise to discuss it in a way that wouldn't scare him. I had been listening on Audible about the Apocrypha and realized that there are some strange things in the bible based on myths and satan is most likely another myth. I will link to a couple below. I mentioned the one about the angels mating with women to create giants (nephilim) to my wife as a reason why I don't believe in satan anymore.

By the way, does anyone have any ideas on how to teach kids some of this stuff?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... le/lilith/

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Palerider
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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by Palerider » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:47 pm

Having raised four children, I wouldn't even raise either of these subjects with my kids until they were six or seven years old. Or if they happen to bring it up themselves.

Three years old? Kinda young there....

But that's just me.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

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blazerb
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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by blazerb » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:50 am

The nature of Satan in Job is quite different from our current notions. I might look for some more information based on the Wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan. I remember being terrified of "The Devil" as a child. It wasn't that my parents were trying to scare me. There was just a lot of scary thought floating around in the religious atmosphere. I was aware of the war in heaven. I was told that Satan could talk to me. Even though Satan could not read my thoughts he was aware of every step, glance, and gesture I made so that he could take advantage of my obvious weaknesses. Be careful. Would it cause a problem with your wife if you told your child that you don't think Satan exists?

There are lots of crazy stories. Some of them we don't notice because they are so commonly told. Parting waters to walk on dry ground. Talking donkeys. Fire from heaven as an excuse to murder hundreds of priests from another religion. Bears killing kids who comment on the baldness of a prophet (be careful what you say about the 1st Presidency). I haven't even touched the crazy doctrines.

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2bizE
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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by 2bizE » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:28 am

I also remember being scared of Satan. He was like the big, boogy monster to me.
~2bizE

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Corsair
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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by Corsair » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:06 am

You can talk about how Satan is a really different character depending on where he shows up in the Bible. The book of Job shows him making a friendly bar bet with God. Genesis has Satan goofing up the Creation project, but he does not look entirely malicious. Satan is distinctly the bad guy in the New Testament. It's mainly the false gods and unbelieving kings who end up as bad guys in the Old Testament.

Each of the various ways to view Satan makes him into a character with a different personality wherever he shows up. This matches the Documentary Hypothesis of the Bible since the bias against Satan is inconsistent. You could just tell your kids that Satan shows up like a bad guy in story in lots of different ways.

stuck
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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by stuck » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:59 am

Palerider wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:47 pm
Having raised four children, I wouldn't even raise either of these subjects with my kids until they were six or seven years old. Or if they happen to bring it up themselves.

Three years old? Kinda young there....

But that's just me.
I agree 3 years old is too young. Hell, I had nightmares about Injun Joe when my parents took me to Tom Sawyer at his age. My wife is ocd about following rules which is why she wants to read scriptures together nightly and have prayers even though she knows how I feel about the church and God. So it follows that she is ocd about doing come follow me (cfm) even with a 3 year old.

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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by Arcturus » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:29 am

stuck wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:59 am
Hell, I had nightmares about Injun Joe when my parents took me to Tom Sawyer at his age.
Injun Joe!!! He haunted me too after I watched that as a kid :lol:
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
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Palerider
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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by Palerider » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:44 am

stuck wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:59 am

I agree 3 years old is too young. Hell, I had nightmares about Injun Joe when my parents took me to Tom Sawyer at his age. My wife is ocd about following rules which is why she wants to read scriptures together nightly and have prayers even though she knows how I feel about the church and God. So it follows that she is ocd about doing come follow me (cfm) even with a 3 year old.
This is one of the things I really dislike (hate?) about the church/cult.

They get parents so wrapped up in producing perfect children that many times they lose sight of what it means to be a regular, loving father and mother. And the parents do it because they themselves are being manipulated by a rules based religion.

They (LDS leadership) begin to push, through their teaching propaganda, that the child's value is based upon learning the rules and being rule keepers. This is all couched in the disguise of "following Christ". But it really is something different.

It coerces parents into expecting comprehensive abilities from their children that they are completely unprepared for. But desperate parents are blinded by the urge to "save" all of their children and in doing so they actually build relationships that are conditioned upon the child's obedience to rules.

It isn't healthy. It isn't right. It isn't Christlike.

It's a difficult brainwashing from which to wake up. Because of the false doctrine taught by seriously stupid men, parents live in continuous fear of losing their children. These doctrines are fear based, not faith based.

God created us the way we are. He knows we're going to make mistakes. Some of those mistakes will make things difficult for the rest of our lives. Yes, it's better if some of them can be avoided. But I don't recall Christ shunning people who had made mistakes or committed sin.
As he said, those who are healthy have no need of a physician. So his mission was to help those who needed him. And that's all of us. The Pharisees may have kept such people as they considered unworthy or unclean away from the temple but Christ pointedly made himself available to them.

Who is greater, Christ or the temple?

LDS leadership would never admit it but the reality is, LDS doctrine induces naive parents to force feed their children rules-based relationships as opposed to parents providing truly loving and acceptance based relationships.

ETA: I was a little "hot" when I wrote this and have gone back to edit it for clarity.
Last edited by Palerider on Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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alas
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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by alas » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:29 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:44 am
stuck wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:59 am

I agree 3 years old is too young. Hell, I had nightmares about Injun Joe when my parents took me to Tom Sawyer at his age. My wife is ocd about following rules which is why she wants to read scriptures together nightly and have prayers even though she knows how I feel about the church and God. So it follows that she is ocd about doing come follow me (cfm) even with a 3 year old.
This is one of the things I really dislike (hate?) about the church/cult.

They get parents so wrapped up in producing perfect children that many times they lose sight of what it means to be a regular, loving father and mother. And they do it because they themselves are being manipulated by a rules based religion.

They begin to push, through their teaching propaganda, that the child's value is based upon learning the rules and being rule keepers. This is all couched in the disguise of "following Christ". But it really is something different.

It coerces parents into expecting comprehensive abilities from their children that they are completely unprepared for. But desperate parents are blinded by the urge to "save" all of their children and in doing so they actually build relationships that are conditioned upon the child's obedience to rules.

It isn't healthy. It isn't right. It isn't Christlike.

It's a difficult brainwashing from which to wake up. Because of the false doctrine taught by seriously stupid men, parents live in fear of losing their children. These doctrines are fear based, not faith based.

God created us the way we are. He knows we're going to make mistakes. Some of them will make things difficult for the rest of our lives. Yes, it's better if some of them can be avoided. But I don't recall Christ shunning people who had made mistakes or committed sin. The Pharisees may have kept such people away from the temple but Christ made himself available to them.

Who is greater, Christ or the temple?

LDS leadership would never admit it but the reality is, LDS doctrine induces naive parents to force feed their children rules based relationships as opposed to truly loving and accepting parent based relationships.
I agree with this.

The church currently is led by a man who thinks parents should only love their kids when their kids do what they are told. He stupidly, but proudly proclaims from the pulpit that God’s love for his children is NOT unconditional, that it is based on our obedience. This is so false that it would make Jesus cry. Anyone with any training in psychology, child development, education, or whatever will tell you that this is a horrible way to raise a child and I refuse to worship a horrible God. Conditional “love” is not love. It is approval and Nelson doesn’t know the difference. The church has this unChristian idea that people can earn “worthiness”, go through a temple and earn a ticket back to God. It is the same thing Christ got upset with the Pharisees for. They thought that obeying rules was the way to win God’s love. But Christ was clear that no matter how much we do, we still fall short, but also no matter what we do, we still have God’s love, because God’s love is not based on what we do, but based on the fact that we are his.

So, the most important thing to teach your child is that you love him, no matter what because he is your son and you don’t need any other reason to love him. Teach him that sure you will get angry and at times you may not like him, but you will always love him. The next most important thing to teach him ,if you are going to teach him anything about God, is that God loves him this same way. No matter what he does, God loves him. He cannot earn God’s love because it is already given to him, free of charge. Third thing to teach is to love other people, but know his own limits. No matter how hard he tries, he will never make other people happy, including God, because that takes more than any human is capable of. Other people have to decide to be happy, he can’t make them be happy. All he can do is do his best to love other people as God loves him.

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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by Wonderment » Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:11 am

So, the most important thing to teach your child is that you love him, no matter what because he is your son and you don’t need any other reason to love him. Teach him that sure you will get angry and at times you may not like him, but you will always love him. The next most important thing to teach him ,if you are going to teach him anything about God, is that God loves him this same way. No matter what he does, God loves him. He cannot earn God’s love because it is already given to him, free of charge
Completely agree.

Question: Why exactly is it necessary to scare a three year old out of his wits by discussing Satan? For most 3 year olds, the belief that Jesus was the son of God and wants us to follow him, so that he can love us and make us better people, is enough to comprehend.

Could you give us a more specific reason as to why your wife feels it's necessary to introduce Satan to a 3 year old? Satan terrified me until I was about 12. I was a sickly child with a weak immune system, and my parents told me that when people listen to Satan or are disobedient, that is what makes them sick. Satan wants children to be sick. I used to go to school with strep throat and a temperature of 102 degrees, insisting to my parents that I was "just fine" because I was so scared of being sick, as they would think I had been disobedient.
One time, long before vaccinations for chicken pox were available, that illness swept through my first grade classroom. Nearly every child was out ill.
I went to school, covered with chicken pox, telling my mom that I was a good girl and never listened to Satan, so of course, I wasn't sick. My teacher sent me to the nurse, who called my mom to take me home. I was so scared, that I was trembling. Fortunately my mom believed me that I wasn't listening to Satan and was just caught up in a wave of chicken pox.

Could you give us an exact reason why an innocent toddler should be told about ( the myth) of Satan, or the abstract philosophical discussion of good vs. evil? Something more specific than your wife has ocd? Why is it not enough, at age 3, to learn that God love us and wants us to be obedient and love him? If she is ocd, then she must have ( a lot of) very detailed, specific reasons. Please let us know. Thank you. - Wndr.

stuck
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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by stuck » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:26 pm

Could you give us an exact reason why an innocent toddler should be told about ( the myth) of Satan, or the abstract philosophical discussion of good vs. evil? Something more specific than your wife has ocd? Why is it not enough, at age 3, to learn that God love us and wants us to be obedient and love him? If she is ocd, then she must have ( a lot of) very detailed, specific reasons. Please let us know. Thank you. - Wndr
[/quote]

That is interesting/scary about what your parents believed in the devil making you sick! Anyway, I asked my wife about how it came up and apparently she told him that if he's feeling sad or something that it could be the devil! That's just as bad or worse than making you sick right?! Anyhow, she also told him that he didn't have a body and didn't have blood. This made my 3 year old not fear him and think that he could just "bash" him to get rid of him :lol: But if I remember right, isn't it true in LDS theology that the devil cannot influence kids under the age of 8?

This religion argh!

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Palerider
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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by Palerider » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:19 pm

stuck wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:26 pm
But if I remember right, isn't it true in LDS theology that the devil cannot influence kids under the age of 8?
Yes, this is true but he seems to do very well keeping older white men in the dark about their own biases and ignorance.....
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

stuck
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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by stuck » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:33 am

Palerider wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:19 pm
stuck wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:26 pm
But if I remember right, isn't it true in LDS theology that the devil cannot influence kids under the age of 8?
Yes, this is true but he seems to do very well keeping older white men in the dark about their own biases and ignorance.....
I agree with that. When are they going to become intellectually honest and be more like the RLDS right? I guess they figure they have the wool pulled over too many at this time :x

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Hagoth
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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:46 pm

He'll, I don't think adults should be taught about Satan. Who benefits from believing in the bogey man? Its kinda sad that a good Mormon is not allowed to grow up and leave such myths behind, but have to live in constant fear of an invisible monster until they die.

I read a book about brain development that claimed children do not develop the abstract cognitive capacity (as in the capacity to think about what someone thinks you think about them) that makes it possible to understand the concept of God until about age 8-10. To them God is the same as Santa Claus or an out of town uncle. What are they supposed to do with Satan? He's just another scary monster in the closet.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Not Buying It
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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:24 am

Palerider wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:44 am
stuck wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:59 am

I agree 3 years old is too young. Hell, I had nightmares about Injun Joe when my parents took me to Tom Sawyer at his age. My wife is ocd about following rules which is why she wants to read scriptures together nightly and have prayers even though she knows how I feel about the church and God. So it follows that she is ocd about doing come follow me (cfm) even with a 3 year old.
This is one of the things I really dislike (hate?) about the church/cult.

They get parents so wrapped up in producing perfect children that many times they lose sight of what it means to be a regular, loving father and mother. And the parents do it because they themselves are being manipulated by a rules based religion.

They (LDS leadership) begin to push, through their teaching propaganda, that the child's value is based upon learning the rules and being rule keepers. This is all couched in the disguise of "following Christ". But it really is something different.

It coerces parents into expecting comprehensive abilities from their children that they are completely unprepared for. But desperate parents are blinded by the urge to "save" all of their children and in doing so they actually build relationships that are conditioned upon the child's obedience to rules.

It isn't healthy. It isn't right. It isn't Christlike.

It's a difficult brainwashing from which to wake up. Because of the false doctrine taught by seriously stupid men, parents live in continuous fear of losing their children. These doctrines are fear based, not faith based.

God created us the way we are. He knows we're going to make mistakes. Some of those mistakes will make things difficult for the rest of our lives. Yes, it's better if some of them can be avoided. But I don't recall Christ shunning people who had made mistakes or committed sin.
As he said, those who are healthy have no need of a physician. So his mission was to help those who needed him. And that's all of us. The Pharisees may have kept such people as they considered unworthy or unclean away from the temple but Christ pointedly made himself available to them.

Who is greater, Christ or the temple?

LDS leadership would never admit it but the reality is, LDS doctrine induces naive parents to force feed their children rules-based relationships as opposed to parents providing truly loving and acceptance based relationships.

ETA: I was a little "hot" when I wrote this and have gone back to edit it for clarity.
Well said Palerider.

Teaching your children at any age to believe in an invisible trickster who is trying to get you to do bad things is questionable at best, but if you are going to do it, three seems too young. Teach your child not to do things that harm other people and there's no reason to mention Satan at all.

The concept of Satan is completely unnecessary to the development of a healthy sense of morality and the practice of moral behavior.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by moksha » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:44 pm

Satan and three-year-olds do no go together. Much better to mention the talking donkey in the Bible. Show a picture of a donkey and do some donkey noises. The three-year-old will love it.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Hagoth
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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:41 pm

Ultimately, the only reason for a character like Satan is so that people higher up in the religious hierarchy have a scapegoat when their supposed powers aren't useful to intervene when things don't go well. You are less likely to get strung up or hung out to dry if you can redirect peoples' recrimination onto an invisible and unlocatable culprit.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by dogbite » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:25 pm

Satan is an evolving character in the Bible as well. It's not obvious because the OT isn't laid out in the order written that would show evolving doctrine. And don't confuse the time period of the topic setting with when it was written.

While some of the stories are old and about older events, the actual oldest written account starts with Deuteronomy in about 630 BCE with edits over the next few hundred years. This is still polytheistic Hebrew with an effort at monolatrist polytheism of Jahweh to elevate Jerusalem to the prime theological center under the efforts of King Josiah.

Chapter 4's sort of declaration of monotheism is an exilic rewrite when actual monotheism was gaining strength from Zoroastrian influences.

Satan's original purpose was to argue the negatives of a person's life at their judgement before Mot. And don't get me started on the issue of the term Lucifer as hijacked by the LDS. It has everything to with the King James translation that incorporated some Greek pagan references and nothing else.

This is the actual world Lehi would have left. The kinds of things claimed to be on the brass plates simply did not exist, and certainly not the purported doctrinal content.

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Re: Strange things in the Bible

Post by wtfluff » Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:29 pm

moksha wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:44 pm
Satan and three-year-olds do no go together. Much better to mention the talking donkey in the Bible. Show a picture of a donkey and do some donkey noises. The three-year-old will love it.
A Talking Donkey?!?!?!

Image

Actually: I approve wholeheartedly of talking donkeys. They go together quite well with 3-year-olds.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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