Corsair Visits Nauvoo in Winter

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Corsair
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Re: Corsair Visits Nauvoo in Winter

Post by Corsair » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:56 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:58 pm
Corsair wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:47 pm
The Nauvoo mission had an event this morning. It was a parade along main street and then down to the river on Parley street.
Did they have a squad of deacons whistling and whittling?
No, just some people aggrieved that their religious leader managed to tick off everyone from nearby towns up to the governor. I don't doubt that innocent people lost their homes and livelihoods. But, I feel like we are missing the side of the story about why the early Mormons made so many enemies. This is a conversation I cannot have with my believing family. Their answer is "Satan stirred up the hearts of men to anger". Any issues like plural marriage, voting as a bloc, land speculation, banking practices, or rumors of counterfeiting will not be tolerated.

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Corsair
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Re: Corsair Visits Nauvoo in Winter

Post by Corsair » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:12 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:19 pm
This sounds almost as wacky as the instructor I had tell my class that there is a temple ceremony depicted in the Book of MORmON. (I can't remember exactly where this happened. Possibly the MTC? They had to be teaching a class full of folks who had been through the creepy, plagiarized Masonic ceremony, so I don't think it was in my seminary days. I guess it could have been institute, where they were only dropping hints to the "endowed" minions in the class...)
As far as I can tell, the "temple ceremony" is simply how Nephi is approached by the Spirit in 1 Nephi 1:2-6. Nephi wants to see the Vision of the Tree of Life. The dialog goes:
Nephi or Joseph Smith wrote:2 And the Spirit said unto me: Behold, what desirest thou?

3 And I said: I desire to behold the things which my father saw.

4 And the Spirit said unto me: Believest thou that thy father saw the tree of which he hath spoken?

5 And I said: Yea, thou knowest that I believe all the words of my father.

6 And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all. And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired.
This bears a slight resemblance to the veil ceremony which is likely what your smug CES instructor was bringing up.

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alas
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Re: Corsair Visits Nauvoo in Winter

Post by alas » Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:03 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:19 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:55 pm
Corsair wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:28 pm
But my mother-in-law also volunteered her own apologetic of the whole issue of the Book of Abraham. Apparently this guy named Bruce Porter was commissioned by the church to go to Egypt and research the connections between the LDS temple endowment and the Egyptian temple ceremony. Seriously, there is this idea that the Egyptians had the temple ceremony, but did not have the priesthood because of Ham and Egyptus.
I have heard my BYU professor neighbor talk about this. Whenever he hears that someone is going to visit Egypt he tells them to go to a specific spot in the Karnac temple where they will see the entire endowment illustrated in a wall painting. My unspoken observation is that he has it backwards, that Joseph was trying to imitate the poses he saw in papyri and reproductions of Egyptian art.
Please oh please get more information about this. What is the exact wall painting? I really want to see the Egyptian depiction of Elohim and MORmON Jesus, as I have never seen white beardly dudes wearing togas in Egyptian art. I also want to see how the Egyptians depicted Elohim telling the other (white) dudes to "go down" and use "matter unorganized" (space junk) to create earth.

This sounds almost as wacky as the instructor I had tell my class that there is a temple ceremony depicted in the Book of MORmON. (I can't remember exactly where this happened. Possibly the MTC? They had to be teaching a class full of folks who had been through the creepy, plagiarized Masonic ceremony, so I don't think it was in my seminary days. I guess it could have been institute, where they were only dropping hints to the "endowed" minions in the class...)
Hugh Nibley is the one who invented the connection between Egyptian art and the endowment. My husband got a copy of his book sometime in the 80s and I looked through it enough to think that if he stretched things any further it would be hilarious. It was the biggest pile of unadulterated crap ever invented....well maybe Joseph gave Nibley a run for his money. So, look up his theories or go to DIs for an old copy of his book. I can’t believe there are still people...

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wtfluff
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Re: Corsair Visits Nauvoo in Winter

Post by wtfluff » Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:28 pm

Corsair wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:12 pm
As far as I can tell, the "temple ceremony" is simply how Nephi is approached by the Spirit in 1 Nephi 1:2-6. Nephi wants to see the Vision of the Tree of Life. The dialog goes:
Nephi or Joseph Smith wrote:2 And the Spirit said unto me: Behold, what desirest thou?

3 And I said: I desire to behold the things which my father saw.

4 And the Spirit said unto me: Believest thou that thy father saw the tree of which he hath spoken?

5 And I said: Yea, thou knowest that I believe all the words of my father.

6 And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all. And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired.
This bears a slight resemblance to the veil ceremony which is likely what your smug CES instructor was bringing up.
Just like I don't remember the exact class or instructor, I don't remember if the instructor eventually spilled the beans, or if I twisted my brain into knots enough to decide that the creepy fake Masonic ceremony in the BoM was when Mahonri Moriancumer was "chatting" with Elohim (or was it MORmON Jesus?) and Mahonri saw Elohim's white-and-delightsome finger (creating Magic Rocks™.) I mean that's as real as it gets, no? Elohim poking his finger through the "veil" !!!

Honestly, your guess is just as good as mine. It's all just the over-active imagination of a believing mind, making sh!t up/hoping a ghost will "tell" them the made-up answers.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

We are secrets to each other

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Red Ryder
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Re: Corsair Visits Nauvoo in Winter

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:47 pm

Sounds like a great trip! Thanks for taking us along for the ride.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

stuck
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Re: Corsair Visits Nauvoo in Winter

Post by stuck » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:54 pm

Did anyone hear Mike Brown's podcast with John Dehlin on Mormon Stories? He said something about Joseph Smith communicating to a land speculator? or someone of the like that to some effect he didn't care that much for the health of the people who lived in Nauvoo. This angered me because I did have an ancestor who died there probably from malaria at age 40. I mean it doesn't make a lot of sense since he himself lived there, but if it's true it was a pretty calloused thing to say and perhaps showed some of his true colors? Just wondering if anyone had heard of anything like this and if so if you know a reference.

Thanks for the travel log Corsair.

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Re: Corsair Visits Nauvoo in Winter

Post by jfro18 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:22 pm

stuck wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:54 pm
Did anyone hear Mike Brown's podcast with John Dehlin on Mormon Stories? He said something about Joseph Smith communicating to a land speculator? or someone of the like that to some effect he didn't care that much for the health of the people who lived in Nauvoo. This angered me because I did have an ancestor who died there probably from malaria at age 40. I mean it doesn't make a lot of sense since he himself lived there, but if it's true it was a pretty calloused thing to say and perhaps showed some of his true colors? Just wondering if anyone had heard of anything like this and if so if you know a reference.

Thanks for the travel log Corsair.
Just speculating here, but I think Joseph Smith cared about the members at least on a surface level - he needed the numbers and he certainly needed their contributions of money, time, and influence.

Honestly the thing with the malaria outbreak is that it was after the Word of Wisdom, where Joseph Smith you'd think would've been told by God to boil water, which would've saved the dozen (or so) members who died because of that outbreak.

I think it's pretty clear that Joseph was always in over his head, and so land speculation was part of his way of creating artificial wealth and getting out from under all of his debt... and I think that was something that absolutely was more of a motivation to JS than the health and well being of the rank and file members.

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Re: Corsair Visits Nauvoo in Winter

Post by Reuben » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:24 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:22 pm
Honestly the thing with the malaria outbreak is that it was after the Word of Wisdom, where Joseph Smith you'd think would've been told by God to boil water, which would've saved the dozen (or so) members who died because of that outbreak.
Surely the commandment to consume mild barley drinks would have helped. They must have been disobedient!
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Re: Corsair Visits Nauvoo in Winter

Post by stuck » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:51 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:22 pm
I think it's pretty clear that Joseph was always in over his head, and so land speculation was part of his way of creating artificial wealth and getting out from under all of his debt... and I think that was something that absolutely was more of a motivation to JS than the health and well being of the rank and file members.
[/quote]

I agree with this jfro18, it would be interesting to read the reference that Mike Brown alluded to; if I come across it I will share

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Re: Corsair Visits Nauvoo in Winter

Post by Palerider » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:11 pm

stuck wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:51 pm
jfro18 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:22 pm
I think it's pretty clear that Joseph was always in over his head, and so land speculation was part of his way of creating artificial wealth and getting out from under all of his debt... and I think that was something that absolutely was more of a motivation to JS than the health and well being of the rank and file members.


I agree with this jfro18, it would be interesting to read the reference that Mike Brown alluded to; if I come across it I will share
I think I've read some of that same material.

As I recall there were land areas of the Nauvoo settlement that were much better than others. The parts that Joseph purchased as a speculative investment (very cheaply) were poor quality and he practically sold them to incoming members sight unseen and at an inflated price.

The area where Joseph lived was fairly good ground.

It wasn't like Joseph didn't know what he was doing. Maybe he told the unfortunate buyers that there would be future improvements? Whatever the case I think Joseph knew what he was doing.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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