The church blows my mind again

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Tangent
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The church blows my mind again

Post by Tangent » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:14 pm

Hey everyone,

It’s been ages (years I’m sure) since I posted but today I had an experience that has pulled me out of lurker status...

I’m the financial clerk and just met with the bishop to do tithing and cut a few checks. He mentioned that since all this pandemic stuff has started he’s seeing an uptick in requests for help....big surprise, right? Then he said that he’s gotten guidance from salt lake indicating during this time of upheaval and uncertainty bishops should tell members that their first line of assistance should be the time, talents, and means of members of their local congregations instead of requesting help from Salt Lake.

As you may guess the part that really set me off was the ‘means’ (i.e. money) of local members before salt lake. I told the bishop ’What?? The church is sitting on over $100 billion and they say this??’ Luckily he’s a good guy and said he got my point and that had crossed his mind as well. I didn’t say any more but felt like my head would explode.
Another example of the church putting preservation of the institution above the support And care of its members.
This wil be a difficult time for EVERYONE, and rather than open their coffers a little they say, ‘ok everyone, just help each other out’
And the people who are willing to help out financially will still be expected to pay a full tithing.

I am so disgusted.

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Random
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Re: The church blows my mind again

Post by Random » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:31 pm

So much for the fund being a rainy day fund to help the people in time of need - or maybe I just imagined that some spokesman said that was the reason for the billions (after the initial reason of was "saving it for Jesus' return"). Or maybe they just said rainy day and let me think they meant "for the people" instead of "for the corp"?
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: The church blows my mind again

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:33 pm

They have living stipends and grandkid tuition to preserve through the inevitable tithing downturn. They (the GAs) are also all related by blood except for a few token foreigners. Make no mistake those vacation homes and hunting preserves come first.

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Fletch
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Re: The church blows my mind again

Post by Fletch » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:59 pm

Tangent wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:14 pm
Hey everyone,

It’s been ages (years I’m sure) since I posted but today I had an experience that has pulled me out of lurker status...

I’m the financial clerk and just met with the bishop to do tithing and cut a few checks. He mentioned that since all this pandemic stuff has started he’s seeing an uptick in requests for help....big surprise, right? Then he said that he’s gotten guidance from salt lake indicating during this time of upheaval and uncertainty bishops should tell members that their first line of assistance should be the time, talents, and means of members of their local congregations instead of requesting help from Salt Lake.

As you may guess the part that really set me off was the ‘means’ (i.e. money) of local members before salt lake. I told the bishop ’What?? The church is sitting on over $100 billion and they say this??’ Luckily he’s a good guy and said he got my point and that had crossed his mind as well. I didn’t say any more but felt like my head would explode.
Another example of the church putting preservation of the institution above the support And care of its members.
This wil be a difficult time for EVERYONE, and rather than open their coffers a little they say, ‘ok everyone, just help each other out’
And the people who are willing to help out financially will still be expected to pay a full tithing.

I am so disgusted.
Tangent I’m right there with you....disgusted. I’ve been paying tithing and fast offerings my whole life. And the other day I thought, they better be helping those out who have been layered off. I’ll be insensed if I hear that long time members going through a short financial crisis can’t receive help from the church. And yes the 100 billion (now a 30 billion or so less) just frosts me. I (we) have been lied to and it’s just disturbing. I’ve been a member all my life, I’ve had all the callings, BP, HC, YM and this whole situation will tell a lot on how they handle it. I’m disgusted as well.

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blazerb
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Re: The church blows my mind again

Post by blazerb » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:27 pm

Tangent wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:14 pm
Another example of the church putting preservation of the institution above the support And care of its members.
This wil be a difficult time for EVERYONE, and rather than open their coffers a little they say, ‘ok everyone, just help each other out’
And the people who are willing to help out financially will still be expected to pay a full tithing.
Exactly. In their mind, the preservation of the institution is the most important thing. This would be better if they recognized that the membership is the institution, not the businesses or the reserve fund or the various entities that make up the Corporation of the President of the COJCOLDS. The members are there to build up the kingdom which benefits the ones at the top.

I have a lot of problems with JS, but the teachings in the BoM about the dangers of a paid clergy were right on. Paid clergy members hold themselves to be more important than everyone else in the church rather than letting us all be edified together. Of course, JS needed to establish his own primacy in the church and made sure everyone knew who was most important. Almost from the start, he could not live up to his teachings. The leadership fails to live up to the church's ideals once again.

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moksha
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Re: The church blows my mind again

Post by moksha » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:32 pm

"Look to your fellow workers rather than the Corporation. The Corporation only wishes to take in money."
-- The Management
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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nibbler
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Re: The church blows my mind again

Post by nibbler » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:57 pm

Random wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:31 pm
So much for the fund being a rainy day fund to help the people in time of need - or maybe I just imagined that some spokesman said that was the reason for the billions (after the initial reason of was "saving it for Jesus' return"). Or maybe they just said rainy day and let me think they meant "for the people" instead of "for the corp"?
The presiding bishopric's response to the whistleblower complaint and the complaint itself led me to believe that the church's rainy day fund was just that, the church's rainy day fund.
Bishop Gérald Caussé wrote:It’s about building a reserve of the Church, and ultimately, all of those funds will be used for Church purposes.
Bishop W. Christopher Waddell wrote:The church has a budget, again from the faithful tithes and offerings of members of the church, and every year is budgeted portion to set aside for that rainy day that grows to be used so that, if hard times economically do come again, and they will — over time we know there are cycles — that we will have the resources necessary to continue doing this divine work. We won’t have to stop missionary work. We won’t have to stop temple work. We won’t have to stop doing the things we have been commissioned to do because of a lack of resources. That’s why we care for them so carefully.
It's interesting that Waddell mentions missionary work. I know the church does pick up some of the tab, but missionary work is another example of the pattern laid out in the original post. The church asks members to foot the bill ($500/ month in addition to tithing) and the church picks up the slack.

Put it this way, you don't amass a $100 billion reserve by being charitable with your money.

It's a subject that I'm pretty touchy about. A rainy day fund I fully understand. An, "Oops, it's grown to how much!?!?" I can see. The continued call for members to pay tithing before they pay for necessities like food is indefensible IMO. The practice of bleeding the members (give more through fast offerings to care for the poor, give more because of anemic ward budgets, give missionaries meals and rides because they aren't fully supported, all of this an ask in addition to tithing) so that nothing cuts into the church's hoard... it's a sore subject.

The church asks members to sacrifice their rainy day fund and reduces the average member's ability to be self sufficient to what end? To bless the church (organization) with an even more extravagant rainy day fund.

I've seen it posted elsewhere and it's a succinct quote that stings when considering the sacrifices members have made, "Will a god rob man?"
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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Palerider
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Re: The church blows my mind again

Post by Palerider » Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:20 pm

blazerb wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:27 pm
This would be better if they recognized that the membership is the institution, not the businesses or the reserve fund or the various entities that make up the Corporation of the President of the COJCOLDS.
Nope.

The "institution" is or are the ordinances that contain the power of godliness. And the Q15 (and quorums of 70 if absolutely necessary) are the boys who have the keys to control those ordinances.

The entire membership can go up in flames and leadership would cry big alligator tears. But as long as the keys are preserved, leadership can always start from scratch recruiting new members. Of course they'd have a few billion more to start out with than Joseph had but hey, everybody has to start somewhere. ;)

ETA:

My wife says she has been seeing lots of notes on different venues where gen. authorities are saying, " Hey, you shouldn't be surprised that the prophecies are coming true."

I told her I'm not surprised that the Biblical prophecies are coming true. What I am surprised at is how stingy the church is being with it's poor members. THAT'S the big surprise..... :?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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blazerb
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Re: The church blows my mind again

Post by blazerb » Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:08 am

Palerider wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:20 pm

The "institution" is or are the ordinances that contain the power of godliness. And the Q15 (and quorums of 70 if absolutely necessary) are the boys who have the keys to control those ordinances.

The entire membership can go up in flames and leadership would cry big alligator tears. But as long as the keys are preserved, leadership can always start from scratch recruiting new members. Of course they'd have a few billion more to start out with than Joseph had but hey, everybody has to start somewhere. ;)

ETA:

My wife says she has been seeing lots of notes on different venues where gen. authorities are saying, " Hey, you shouldn't be surprised that the prophecies are coming true."

I told her I'm not surprised that the Biblical prophecies are coming true. What I am surprised at is how stingy the church is being with it's poor members. THAT'S the big surprise..... :?
And by "keys" you mean 100 billion dollars, right?

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Random
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Re: The church blows my mind again

Post by Random » Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:29 pm

nibbler wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:57 pm
The presiding bishopric's response to the whistleblower complaint and the complaint itself led me to believe that the church's rainy day fund was just that, the church's rainy day fund.
Bishop Gérald Caussé wrote:It’s about building a reserve of the Church, and ultimately, all of those funds will be used for Church purposes.
. . .
The continued call for members to pay tithing before they pay for necessities like food is indefensible IMO. The practice of bleeding the members (give more through fast offerings to care for the poor, give more because of anemic ward budgets, give missionaries meals and rides because they aren't fully supported, all of this an ask in addition to tithing) so that nothing cuts into the church's hoard... it's a sore subject.

The church asks members to sacrifice their rainy day fund and reduces the average member's ability to be self sufficient to what end? To bless the church (organization) with an even more extravagant rainy day fund.

I've seen it posted elsewhere and it's a succinct quote that stings when considering the sacrifices members have made, "Will a god rob man?"
Yep, it's the Church's, and the people in the Church have no say about it and no right to complain.

And still insisting the poor support their lifestyle is mindblowing. It reminds me of some scripture I read (I think in the Book of Mormon) about those who work supporting the idle. It is often interpreted to mean that those who work for a living should not support the lazy poor - but I honestly believe it's talking about wealthy Church and political leaders who get their money off the backs of the poor (who do not have enough to support themselves and their families).

And how can one be self sufficient if part of one's needs go to a wealthy multi-billion dollar corporation?
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Hagoth
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Re: The church blows my mind again

Post by Hagoth » Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:19 pm

blazerb wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:27 pm
Exactly. In their mind, the preservation of the institution is the most important thing.
They have a very short memory about who they got those funds from.

Which is more likely, that they will suspend their modest stipends and other perks, or that they will use Ensign Peak funds to rescue their members from poverty? Trick question. Neither.

Gold and silver have I plenty, but you suckers ain't gettin' nuthin' (partial Frank Zappa quote)
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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