It’s Mock Trial Time! Joseph Smith v. Polygamy

[Red Ryder]

Since things have been kind of slow around here post gen con hangover is I thought it would be fun to have a mock trial.

Here’s the rules:

You must present an argument FOR Joseph Smith and then the following post reply should be one argument AGAINST Joseph Smith.

All arise! The court will now here testimony and oral argument for and behalf of Joseph Smith who is hereby charged with the unlawful practice of polygamy. All may be seated.

Joseph Smith v. Polygamy

Please call your first witness.

[Red Ryder]

To quote from the church essays: Joseph was commanded by God to practice polygamy. Therefore Joseph was merely following Gods commandment!

The revelation on plural marriage was not written down until 1843, but its early verses suggest that part of it emerged from Joseph Smith’s study of the Old Testament in 1831. People who knew Joseph well later stated he received the revelation about that time.4 The revelation, recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 132, states that Joseph prayed to know why God justified Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon in having many wives. The Lord responded that He had commanded them to enter into the practice.5

I ask the court and members of this jury to have faith.

The historical record of early plural marriage is therefore thin: few records of the time provide details, and later reminiscences are not always reliable. Some ambiguity will always accompany our knowledge about this issue. Like the participants, we “see through a glass, darkly” and are asked to walk by faith.3

[alas]

To quote from the church essays: Joseph was commanded by God to practice polygamy. Therefore Joseph was merely following Gods commandment!

The revelation on plural marriage was not written down until 1843, but its early verses suggest that part of it emerged from Joseph Smith’s study of the Old Testament in 1831. People who knew Joseph well later stated he received the revelation about that time.4 The revelation, recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 132, states that Joseph prayed to know why God justified Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon in having many wives. The Lord responded that He had commanded them to enter into the practice.5

I ask the court and members of this jury to have faith.

The historical record of early plural marriage is therefore thin: few records of the time provide details, and later reminiscences are not always reliable. Some ambiguity will always accompany our knowledge about this issue. Like the participants, we “see through a glass, darkly” and are asked to walk by faith.3

Well, even if it was commanded by God, it was still illegal in the United States at the time. You are offering up an irrelevant argument about whether or not it was moral or immoral according to God’s law and the charges have nothing to do with immorality, but whether or not Joseph broke the law of the US. Please confine your arguments to whether or not Joseph Smith broke the law by practicing polygamy.

[Red Ryder]

To quote FAIR:

Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages to young women may seem difficult to understand or explain today, but in his own time such age differences were not typically an obstacle to marriage. The plural marriages were unusual, to say the least; the younger ages of the brides were much less so. Critics do not provide this perspective because they wish to shock the audience and have them judge Joseph by the standards of the modern era, rather than his own time.

Further, these marriages were a religious ceremony tied to binding families in the eternities.

In other words, polygamous marriages often had other purposes than procreation—one such purpose was likely to tie faithful families together, and this seems to have been a purpose of Joseph's marriage to the daughter of a faithful Apostle. (See: Law of Adoption.)

Critics who assume plural marriage "is all about sex" may be basing their opinion on their own cultural biases and assumptions, rather than upon the actual motives of Church members who participated in the practice.

[Palerider]

To quote from the church essays: Joseph was commanded by God to practice polygamy. Therefore Joseph was merely following Gods commandment!

The revelation, recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 132, states that Joseph prayed to know why God justified Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon in having many wives. The Lord responded that He had commanded them to enter into the practice.5

May it please the court.

Joseph Smith states before the Lord's "response" in the D&C that the Lord justified Old Testament plural marriage. Nothing could be further from the truth.

If Joseph had been thorough in his Old Testament studies he would have recognized that none of the plural marriages found there were commanded by God but all were initiated by man/woman.

What this shows is that Joseph already had an agenda in mind and had previously and clearly rationalized that plural marriage was approved of by the Lord. Thus his false narrative is forced into God's mouth when he rationalizes the reasoning for permitting plural marriage later in the "revelation". Joseph is truly the man behind the curtain speaking for the image of God presented in the D&C.

In actuality, God "winked at" or turned a blind eye to an ancient cultural practice that He someday hoped his people would spiritually evolve away from and be able to practice a higher law of one spouse per spouse.

And thus we see that Joseph's revelation then became a "restoration" of a lower more degraded or primitive practice rather than an enlightened and more virtuous law.

[Hagoth]

In other words, polygamous marriages often had other purposes than procreation—one such purpose was likely to tie faithful families together, and this seems to have been a purpose of Joseph's marriage to the daughter of a faithful Apostle. (See: Law of Adoption.)

Then why didn't Joseph seal himself to the husbands of those families, or to couples, or to older widows whose worthy husbands had died? Why did he specialize in teenagers and young women?

[Reuben]

In other words, polygamous marriages often had other purposes than procreation—one such purpose was likely to tie faithful families together, and this seems to have been a purpose of Joseph's marriage to the daughter of a faithful Apostle. (See: Law of Adoption.)

Then why didn't Joseph seal himself to the husbands of those families, or to couples, or to older widows whose worthy husbands had died? Why did he specialize in teenagers and young women?

It doesn't seem that he did specialize, actually. The variance in age increased over time while the average crept upward.

[Red Ryder]

Then why didn't Joseph seal himself to the husbands of those families, or to couples, or to older widows whose worthy husbands had died? Why did he specialize in teenagers and young women?

It doesn't seem that he did specialize, actually. The variance in age increased over time while the average crept upward.

I think it was opportunistic boundary limitations.

At the beginning, it was a secret so Joseph could theoretically marry 1,000 women. However, over time as the “revelation” was introduced many agreed and many disagreed. Then the “revelation” had to be shared with the other leadership men which then reduces the population Joseph can continue to marry from. Then as it becomes wider known to the whole church, Joseph has to include older women as not to appear as a predator or in competition with his fellow church leaders. So the law of diminishing returns starts to kick in.

One other theory is that as Joseph’s polygamy became widely known among the non Mormon community, the persecution became greater which reduced the ability to continue to marry.

The last theory I’ll throw out is the complication factor. With 34 known wives, it became complicated to spend any significant time or attention he would have needed to maintain his relationships. Assuming a sexual component, it’s possible he just ran out of steam and therefore chose older or married women for dynastic purposes only.

I wonder what the wife count would have been had he not been killed? Brigham Young might be an indicator and Joseph topped out at 50+ wives. I’m assuming there’s a natural limit to the number of wives a religious prophet can achieve before things fall apart.

That would be a fun statistical model to have this court discuss.

Rueben, can you put your excel skills to work here for us?

[Corsair]

In defense of Joseph Smith:

The 19th century practice of plural marriage was presented as an Abrahamic sacrifice commandment for the early Mormons. It was a commandment and treated as a critical part of salvation. The ultimate reason for plural marriage was that God commanded it and the Mormons believed they were obeying God by following it. We have no further systematic foundation for this practice. This is a challenging case of God teaching the early church to use their own judgement in following the commandments. There were certainly some unfortunate circumstances of implementation.

Each early Mormon who participated in plural marriage will have to make an accounting for how they attempted to live this law. The extreme cases are Joseph Smith and Brigham Young who were sealed to a large group of faithful women All of them were simply following these challenging commandments, but remained faithful to the inspiration they received. Many others, like my great-great-grandfather William Derby Johnson, politely and firmly made their case to Brigham Young to remain monogamous. They settled in southern Arizona and their numerous descendants remain largely faithful to the LDS church today.

Part of the clear genius of God's command for plural marriage could only be evaluated decades after it was ended. The important temple ordinances were revealed as part of the implementation of keys for sealing plural wives and husbands together. Plural marriage produced a cohesive church that values eternal families. The LDS church has remained one of the few Christian churches that has largely avoided stark demographic decline. LDS families at least manage to have enough children to maintain a functioning church going forward. A modern LDS sacrament meeting features plenty of small children and babies. This is a sign of a church that still has a demographic future.

I fully acknowledge that we must remember the many instances where plural marriage did not reach an ideal. The instances of older men marrying teenagers remains deeply problematic. The challenge of young widows being unable to easily marry is still a challenge today. The burden of remembering and defending the eternal sealings of early LDS leaders will never go away. God's work in refining his people continues in part by the spiritual maturity of facing this challenging issue by modern members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In prosecution of Joseph Smith:

Joseph made it up. With this one reasonable and basic assumption the whole LDS theological edifice of plural marriage loses coherence. Because there has never been a systematic explanation for plural marriage beyond "Joseph and the early Saints believed they were following God's commandment."

This rationalization could easily apply to every religious organization on the planet for every practice that produces skepticism from outsiders. It certainly applied to the polygamous Anabaptists in 1534 in Munster, the polygamous Oneida group, and every other free-love commune of the 1960s. The clear problems of those groups are easy to discern by outsiders.

Joseph probably believed his own pronouncements, but this leaves a testimony of the painful results of plural marriage for each individual to discern. This clearly leaves a large space for believers and unbelievers of all types to decide whether or not plural marriage makes any sense as a spiritual practice whatsoever. If we have any liberty to decide for ourselves about a spiritual practice, the logical path is clear when we reject a spiritual practice that also produces too much objective harm. In the case of plural marriage this includes coercive marriages, teen brides to elderly men, "trading up" husbands for those with greater priesthood, effectively fatherless families where the patriarch husband is spread among too many wives and children, and too many instances of uncertain parentage.

Plural marriage produces societies that numerically will collapse as younger men are unable to be married in a societally approved ways. Plural marriage produces a culture of a few alpha males and combative group of second class males contending for a small group of potential spouses. Women are treated like objects and prizes, not as partners unified towards raising a family. The modern LDS temple sealing has a host of relatively unknown rules around it that still reflect the rules of plural marriage.

Joseph Smith started something that he could not stop. It is not our obligation to continue it.

[moksha]

An argument for Joseph's Polygamy

Joseph injected some excitement into the staid sexual mores of early 19th Century America.

An argument against Joseph's Polygamy

Innocents are still suffering the effects of Joseph's religiously justified sexual desires to this day in LDS offshoot sects.

[2bizE]

Attorney D.H. Oaks: If it pleases the court, your honor, I would like to offer a plea of defense on behalf of Joseph Smith.
Judge: You May proceed. Call your first witness.
Oaks: I call an Angel to the stand.
Oaks: Mr. Angel, can you please explain to the court what occurred that night in 18 hundred and something between you and Joseph Smith?
Angel: I b cabe Adam Adam I DI....
Oak: I see you are speaking the pure Adamonic language. Could you please speak in English.
Angel: God himself approached me and told me to visit Joseph with a drawn flaming sword and tell Joseph if he didn’t take the young and titillating Mrs. Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner to bed, excuse me, to wed that I was to kill him.
Oaks: And did you visit Joseph?
Angel: Yes, three times I visited him and told him he would die if he did not comply.
Oaks: And did Joseph smith ask this woman to enter into polygamy with him?
Angel: Yes, he did tell her that I threatened him with a flaming sword that I would kill him if he did not comply.
Oaks: Was this woman married at the time?
Angel: Yes to her husband Adam Lightner.
Oaks: No more questions. Your honor and ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I submit to you this testimony from Angel. It is obviously apparent that Joseph is innocent of polygamy because he was blackmailed by God himself. God threatened to kill Joseph if he did not marry and have sweet. sweet sex with the ravishingly miss Mary Elizabeth. It was totally out of his control and he is innocent of these charges as he was coerced by God himself.

https://www.missedinsunday.com/memes/pr ... and-sword/

[Reuben]

I wonder what the wife count would have been had he not been killed? Brigham Young might be an indicator and Joseph topped out at 50+ wives. I’m assuming there’s a natural limit to the number of wives a religious prophet can achieve before things fall apart.

That would be a fun statistical model to have this court discuss.

Rueben, can you put your excel skills to work here for us?

Unfortunately, I only have time to suggest reasonable upper bounds.

Joseph Smith married an average of 3 women per year starting in 1833. If he could have kept it up for another 40 years, he would have married his 154th wife at age 78.

I could have used his later rate of about 6 wives per year, but I think I can cap the number of wives at 150 even at that rate. I assume Joseph meant to have stable relationships with them (and there is a bare minimum of stability he would need for sex). Dunbar's number, which is 150, is the suggested (and fairly well accepted) maximum number of people a human can have stable relationships with.

That's, like, a whole ward.

If he wanted stable relationships with his children, too, and his wives bore an average of 2 children, then he would have topped out at 50 wives. But 2 is quite high; we know that Bringem Young's wives bore an average of 56/55=1.02 children. So maybe he would have topped out at 75? That's Warren Jeffs territory there.

[wtfluff]

That's Warren Jeffs territory there.

I was wondering how many victims Warren had. Is there an "official" source for that anywhere?

[Hagoth]

Assuming a sexual component, it’s possible he just ran out of steam and therefore chose older or married women for dynastic purposes only.

Or he developed a hierarchy within his harem, with older wives supervising and recruiting younger ones.

[Red Ryder]

Assuming a sexual component, it’s possible he just ran out of steam and therefore chose older or married women for dynastic purposes only.

Or he developed a hierarchy within his harem, with older wives supervising and recruiting younger ones.

Now that would be the basis of a great Netflix show! Joeseph Smith King: The true story behind the real Joe Exotic and his harem of polygamist wives!

[Red Ryder]

That's Warren Jeffs territory there.

I was wondering how many victims Warren had. Is there an "official" source for that anywhere?

The wiki article says 84. His father Rulon Jeffs had 75. Could you imagine?

Had Joseph not been killed I believe he would have found an isolated place to build his kingdom of god. You know, like Brother Brigham did!

I can’t believe this is our heritage. It makes me really cringe that as TBM’s we simply overlook this part of our history.

[wtfluff]

That's Warren Jeffs territory there.

I was wondering how many victims Warren had. Is there an "official" source for that anywhere?

The wiki article says 84. His father Rulon Jeffs had 75. Could you imagine?

Had Joseph not been killed I believe he would have found an isolated place to build his kingdom of god. You know, like Brother Brigham did!

I can’t believe this is our heritage. It makes me really cringe that as TBM’s we simply overlook this part of our history.

My Google-Fu is off. I knew that Rulon and Warren both had that range of wives, but couldn't find it. I literally only spent a few seconds searching, so there's that. Can I imagine? Not in the slightest. I don't have a clue how to make a "marriage" work with one other person. Which confirms my confirmation bias that polygamy has nothing to do with family or relationships.

But I think that answers your original question about Joseph: The "church" who has done more to follow Joseph than any other shows that a Fundy "Prophet" will end up with 50-100 victims (I go back and forth between victims and wives... Some of the females in these situations seem informed, and "like" the polygamy, but I think most of them are victims.)

I agree with your foundation statement also. The frontier sex-cult foundation of Elohim-Inc. permeates so much of MORmONism that it's mind blowing, yet believers just do as they're told, and "look the other way."

[Mackman]

Your honor : I would like to present MS Fannie Alger who can demonstrate the Oral argument she performed on Joseph !!!!!

[Emower]

Attorney D.H. Oaks: If it pleases the court, your honor, I would like to offer a plea of defense on behalf of Joseph Smith.
Judge: You May proceed. Call your first witness.
Oaks: I call an Angel to the stand.
Oaks: Mr. Angel, can you please explain to the court what occurred that night in 18 hundred and something between you and Joseph Smith?
Angel: I b cabe Adam Adam I DI....
Oak: I see you are speaking the pure Adamonic language. Could you please speak in English.
Angel: God himself approached me and told me to visit Joseph with a drawn flaming sword and tell Joseph if he didn’t take the young and titillating Mrs. Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner to bed, excuse me, to wed that I was to kill him.
Oaks: And did you visit Joseph?
Angel: Yes, three times I visited him and told him he would die if he did not comply.
Oaks: And did Joseph smith ask this woman to enter into polygamy with him?
Angel: Yes, he did tell her that I threatened him with a flaming sword that I would kill him if he did not comply.
Oaks: Was this woman married at the time?
Angel: Yes to her husband Adam Lightner.
Oaks: No more questions. Your honor and ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I submit to you this testimony from Angel. It is obviously apparent that Joseph is innocent of polygamy because he was blackmailed by God himself. God threatened to kill Joseph if he did not marry and have sweet. sweet sex with the ravishingly miss Mary Elizabeth. It was totally out of his control and he is innocent of these charges as he was coerced by God himself.

https://www.missedinsunday.com/memes/pr ... and-sword/

Judge: *turns to the defendant* You are innocent and hereby released from custody sir! Thank you for your service to your God.
Defendant: Proud to do my duty your honor and "rise" to the occasion! *turns to the jury and winks*
Jury: *all the women swoon*
Oaks: *air-fives RMN in the audience*

This is what it all boils down to. What in the h-e double hockey sticks kind of God do these people want to believe in?!

[Reuben]

Judge: *turns to the defendant* You are innocent and hereby released from custody sir! Thank you for your service to your God.
Defendant: Proud to do my duty your honor and "rise" to the occasion! *turns to the jury and winks*
Jury: *all the women swoon*
Oaks: *air-fives RMN in the audience*

This is what it all boils down to. What in the h-e double hockey sticks kind of God do these people want to believe in?!

I believed in the one I thought I had to believe in to be a good person. It didn't matter much that it was an asshole until my confidence in it sank low enough.