LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by Random » Wed May 20, 2020 2:23 pm

Wow! So, in effect, a multi-billion dollar corporation comes in and forces out smaller businesses and the people who live there. Sort of like the emperor in The Emperor's New Groove before he realized that other people were actually people.
Thoughtful wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 7:25 pm
I used to live in Tooele.

The Erda location was controversial for a few reasons.
1- land was donated on the East Bench of Tooele proper, and the church chose Erda, buying land to do it.

2-The temple site includes an old mom and pop restaurant, that's being forced out-- they would have closed anyway in the near future, but this accelerated their business collapse.

3- the area is currently farms and fancy ranchettes. The temple park area includes medium and high density housing. Farmers have concerns about their well water and utility assessments that were paid just to benefit new developments and then ultimately dry up the farms.

4-city folk in trendy Park neighborhoods don't like animal sights, sex, and smells. Farmers and ranchers see the writing on the wall that new high density neighbors will complain and influence politics against them.

5-Old Tooele, including much of Erda and Grantsville farms hate city folk upstarts, their politics, the ensuing taxes etc. So Old Tooele (who also wanted the temple on the bench) doesn't really want to develop the "bedroom community of SLC" farther out of Stansbury and into Erda.

The ONLY Tooele people I know who are excited about this are in real estate sales.
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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by wtfluff » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:01 am

Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by 2bizE » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:24 am

Shouldn’t a multi-billion dollar real estate and investment firm doing business as (dba) a church have the right to compete with big developers like Ivory Homes, etc? Or should they stick to church things?
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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by wtfluff » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:28 am

2bizE wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:24 am
Shouldn’t a multi-billion dollar real estate and investment firm doing business as (dba) a church have the right to compete with big developers like Ivory Homes, etc? Or should they stick to church things?
Well... If it were a developer, the folks in Erda organizing the referendum might (just barely might) have a chance at stopping/making changes. When it comes to getting TCOTPOTCOJCOLDS™ to change development plans... Well good luck dear Erda residents; Good Luck.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by moksha » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:31 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 11:58 am
Why does a "Church" need or employ "Real Estate Developers???"
Because real estate is a lucrative money maker. As Presiding Bishop Gérald Caussé would say, "Moniness is next to Godliness".
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by Corsair » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:36 pm

Let me offer a tiny, tiny defense of the LDS church in this regard. In short, I can't see how anything else might reasonably happen. The believers in the area would love to have a home in the temple neighborhood for either the blessings or virtue signalling, depending on your attitude. My father is a temple worker in Snowflake, Arizona and the community surrounding the temple is pretty much what you would expect for a retirement community that wants to be within golf cart access to the temple. But, we can hardly blame a believer for wanting to be a short drive from their desired retirement hobbies.

I had a family friend go on an unusual senior mission for the church. He had retired from his career as a real estate lawyer. The church used his expertise to quietly buy up land in Latin America for chapels and temples. His job was to try and avoid the real estate speculation that all too easily happens when the church announces the location of new temples in particular. He would set up shell companies to quietly purchase land for the church so speculators could not easily drive up prices. Certainly the church prefers that temple neighborhoods be safe, quiet, and leaning towards devout. They don't want them to be outright ghettos like the Mesa, Arizona temple had started to become. They also don't necessarily want them to be gated luxury communities on the other end of the spectrum.

I have never been to Tooele and I can hardly comment on changes in the area due to LDS temple plans. It seems the church will always start out with a rhetorical PR disadvantage. Perhaps half the problem is that they always want to have a hugely expensive building as their centerpiece.

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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by NewLight » Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:28 am

As a resident of Tooele County for about 22 years it’s been fun to read this thread and see what people think 😊.

Maybe I can provide a little bit of clarification on this topic. First of all, yes, Tooele is a rural county with nearly all residents living in the northeast corner – within commuting distance of Salt Lake. I actually live in Stansbury Park, the community just north of Erda where the temple will be built and pre-COVID19, my drive to work took about 25 minutes (now I work from home – YEAH!). We will go into Salt Lake for dining out and other activities – it is not that far and being rather small, our entertainment prospects here are limited. Tooele City residents add another 10 -15 minutes on to commute time.

Yesterday, my wife and I signed the petition to oppose the high-density housing in Erda while still allowing the temple. So, why would we do this? These are the considerations we had, not in any particular order:

1. Insufficient infrastructure – the temple and subdivision are going in where I have marked on the map. A MAJOR issue people have is that nothing is being done to Erda Way, the main road just outside the subdivision. Presently this is a two lane road that is everything you would expect a country road to be – no curb or gutter, no sidewalks, just enough space to allow cars to pass each other in opposite directions. I will add that there is a K – 8 charter school there, so the area is crazy with cars dropping and picking kids up at certain times of day. If a subdivision – ANY subdivision – goes in, this road needs improvement where the traffic is and will be.

2. Lack of water – Tooele county is desert and we simply do not have the water supply of Salt Lake. Yes it will grow, but it just can’t like other areas

3. Destruction of a community founded on larger lots, ranchettes, and farms – there’s a pretty lengthy history here that I don’t expect people of this board to fully understand. But just imagine that you buy a home on a 5 acre lot and you understand that is the minimum size for the entire area. You have horses and whatever else you want on your land and then the county decides to allow small/no lots in the area after you have been told for many years that would not happen. Not fair to those folks in my opinion.

4. Insufficient highway access – there is ONE way into the populated Tooele County areas from Salt Lake. If there is an accident, it can easily change the 30 minute commute to 2 or 3 hours. I really tried to check traffic before leaving or returning from work. I hope that as a side effect from coronoavirus, I will just be able to work from home most or all of the time because of this problem that got worse over time and population growth. The state is looking for some alternatives to help out, but they are still years away.

I am completely resigned from the church, but I was a counselor in a bishopric a time ago and remember being told that Tooele County Mormons were an important part of the Salt Lake Temple usage. Needless to say, I was a bit surprised when a temple was announced out here. It will be very prominent where they are placing it – like the only three-story structure for miles surrounded mainly by farmlands. Honestly, I am not keen on it coming, but it does make Mormon friends/neighbors/family happy, so let it be. Still, it will just be one more open space gone when I go out for my morning bike ride!

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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by Thoughtful » Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:11 pm

NewLight wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:28 am
As a resident of Tooele County for about 22 years it’s been fun to read this thread and see what people think 😊.

Maybe I can provide a little bit of clarification on this topic. First of all, yes, Tooele is a rural county with nearly all residents living in the northeast corner – within commuting distance of Salt Lake. I actually live in Stansbury Park, the community just north of Erda where the temple will be built and pre-COVID19, my drive to work took about 25 minutes (now I work from home – YEAH!). We will go into Salt Lake for dining out and other activities – it is not that far and being rather small, our entertainment prospects here are limited. Tooele City residents add another 10 -15 minutes on to commute time.

Yesterday, my wife and I signed the petition to oppose the high-density housing in Erda while still allowing the temple. So, why would we do this? These are the considerations we had, not in any particular order:

1. Insufficient infrastructure – the temple and subdivision are going in where I have marked on the map. A MAJOR issue people have is that nothing is being done to Erda Way, the main road just outside the subdivision. Presently this is a two lane road that is everything you would expect a country road to be – no curb or gutter, no sidewalks, just enough space to allow cars to pass each other in opposite directions. I will add that there is a K – 8 charter school there, so the area is crazy with cars dropping and picking kids up at certain times of day. If a subdivision – ANY subdivision – goes in, this road needs improvement where the traffic is and will be.

2. Lack of water – Tooele county is desert and we simply do not have the water supply of Salt Lake. Yes it will grow, but it just can’t like other areas

3. Destruction of a community founded on larger lots, ranchettes, and farms – there’s a pretty lengthy history here that I don’t expect people of this board to fully understand. But just imagine that you buy a home on a 5 acre lot and you understand that is the minimum size for the entire area. You have horses and whatever else you want on your land and then the county decides to allow small/no lots in the area after you have been told for many years that would not happen. Not fair to those folks in my opinion.

4. Insufficient highway access – there is ONE way into the populated Tooele County areas from Salt Lake. If there is an accident, it can easily change the 30 minute commute to 2 or 3 hours. I really tried to check traffic before leaving or returning from work. I hope that as a side effect from coronoavirus, I will just be able to work from home most or all of the time because of this problem that got worse over time and population growth. The state is looking for some alternatives to help out, but they are still years away.

I am completely resigned from the church, but I was a counselor in a bishopric a time ago and remember being told that Tooele County Mormons were an important part of the Salt Lake Temple usage. Needless to say, I was a bit surprised when a temple was announced out here. It will be very prominent where they are placing it – like the only three-story structure for miles surrounded mainly by farmlands. Honestly, I am not keen on it coming, but it does make Mormon friends/neighbors/family happy, so let it be. Still, it will just be one more open space gone when I go out for my morning bike ride!
What have you heard about opening up Butterfield with a more passable road for commuters? That was always the rumor when I was out there.

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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by NewLight » Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:43 pm

Still just a rumor on the Butterfield Canyon road. I would be very surprised if anything happened with that - but it still makes for a nice Sunday drive in the summer :D

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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by wtfluff » Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:09 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:11 pm
What have you heard about opening up Butterfield with a more passable road for commuters? That was always the rumor when I was out there.
NewLight wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:43 pm
Still just a rumor on the Butterfield Canyon road. I would be very surprised if anything happened with that - but it still makes for a nice Sunday drive in the summer :D
There's so much growth on the "Salt Lake" side of Butterfield, that "opening it up" would do absolutely nothing but send Tooele folks to another "choke point" in Herriman.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by moksha » Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:41 pm

NewLight wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:28 am
Yesterday, my wife and I signed the petition to oppose the high-density housing in Erda while still allowing the temple.
NewLight, while the proposed Church land development probably does not make sense from a land-use planning point of view, the Church always gets it way in Utah and Tooele does not seem willing to say no to any growth. Tooele County spent years hosting the nation's supply of deadly nerve gas and still hosts the largest single pollution source in the US.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by NewLight » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:25 am

You are quite right, Moksha, on both accounts - the County wants growth and the Church gets what it wants in Utah.

There is an interesting dynamic at play as well with the whole petition thing. When we signed it last Saturday, other people were there signing as well and the dialogue shared while there made it very clear that none were LDS. I think I mentioned that the petition was to oppose the subdivision, but not the temple. That in and of itself makes it clear how hopeless it is to even stop the temple from coming, huh? :lol: :lol: That said, I knew it was only a matter of time until a temple announcement out here.

Of course, everyone knows about the petition, but the Church will not say one way or the other if they would be willing to build the temple without the subdivision as planned - they keep silent as a vacuum of space on that subject. They do so with good reason because it makes members stew on the idea of a petition and puts them in a position to be unwilling to sign it. Members are in a state of worrying that if they sign it, the Church may pull the whole temple deal from beneath them. Also, anything that goes against what the Church proposes in Utah is seen as being unsupportive of God by the devout.

The LDS folks will support the subdivision albeit reluctantly. They will do so in spite of being fully aware that the street the charter school resides on where they take their kids really is not safe and will be less so after homes are build. It will become more congested and with no sidewalk, curb, or gutter, space for the extra cars, etc. the possibility for injury and accidents will increase. Truly a shame.

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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by 2bizE » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:50 pm

As most may be aware, residents of Tooele county are trying to block the development of higher density housing with the whole temple development project. An interesting tie bit is that the church is now saying the development of the temple and all the homes and green areas is a “packaged deal”. The plan is for the developers to pay for all of the infrastructure and not the church (although the church bus probably bedfellows with the developers). Basically, they are trying to extort the emotions of the people into dropping the opposition because if you want a temple, then you have all the hundreds of homes around it as a packaged deal.
Is this a new trend from the church? Buy property for a temple and a huge subdivision, then have the developers pay for the temple?
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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by moksha » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:42 am

2bizE wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:50 pm
Is this a new trend from the church? Buy property for a temple and a huge subdivision, then have the developers pay for the temple?
The developer is Suburban Land Reserve, which is a for-profit company owned by the LDS Church. I assume this means the Church will be paying itself back from the sales money, but once the profits are back into Church coffers it will be tax-free and can be funneled into Ensign Peak Investments.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by blazerb » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:25 am

moksha wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:42 am
The developer is Suburban Land Reserve, which is a for-profit company owned by the LDS Church. I assume this means the Church will be paying itself back from the sales money, but once the profits are back into Church coffers it will be tax-free and can be funneled into Ensign Peak Investments.
So the new plan is to announce a temple, make money from selling lots in a subdivision around the temple, and keep the tithing money flowing from those living in the subdivision.

When I was a youth at some fireside, I was told that a credit card company once came to the leadership of BYU offering a deal for the alumni. BYU was to get a cut from the profits that the credit card company would make. The leadership of BYU took it to the board of trustees just to see what they would say. The board, composed of GA's, was deeply offended at the idea of encouraging debt in the members in order to make money for the church. Apparently the current leadership sees no problem with this type of arrangement.

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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:49 am

blazerb wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:25 am
When I was a youth at some fireside, I was told that a credit card company once came to the leadership of BYU offering a deal for the alumni. BYU was to get a cut from the profits that the credit card company would make. The leadership of BYU took it to the board of trustees just to see what they would say. The board, composed of GA's, was deeply offended at the idea of encouraging debt in the members in order to make money for the church. Apparently the current leadership sees no problem with this type of arrangement.

But buying a home is good dept. Hinkley said so himself. Dept for a home, modest car, and education is good. Dept that funnels more money into the church is even better.

Just wait until the church starts buying car dealerships. Then they can have the whole trifecta. Home, cars, and education, all provided by the church. If you get your financing through Zions Bank, they really get your money.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by blazerb » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:49 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:49 am
But buying a home is good dept. Hinkley said so himself. Dept for a home, modest car, and education is good. Dept that funnels more money into the church is even better.

Just wait until the church starts buying car dealerships. Then they can have the whole trifecta. Home, cars, and education, all provided by the church. If you get your financing through Zions Bank, they really get your money.
Elder Ballard will be running the car gig. Can you imagine if this had happened 65 years ago? Ford might have made a killing selling Edsels to Mormons.

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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by wtfluff » Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:01 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:49 am
If you get your financing through Zions Bank, they really get your money.
As an FYI: COJCOLd$-Inc. has not owned controlling interest in Zions Bank for over 60 years.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by moksha » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:55 pm

blazerb wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:49 am
Elder Ballard will be running the car gig. Can you imagine if this had happened 65 years ago? Ford might have made a killing selling Edsels to Mormons.
During the late 1950s, Ballard was recruited by the Ford Motor Company to become the first Edsel car dealer for Salt Lake City. Inspiration from on high Detroit.

Zions Bank was founded in 1873 by Brigham Young. It did a mock divestment for a tax advantage. Sort of like putting your stocks in a family member's name with the understanding that they are still yours.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Re: LDS Church proposes new community near future Tooele Valley Temple

Post by Random » Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:00 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:01 am
Just This Guy wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:49 am
If you get your financing through Zions Bank, they really get your money.
As an FYI: COJCOLd$-Inc. has not owned controlling interest in Zions Bank for over 60 years.
I didn't know this. I thought they owned the whole thing.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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