Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

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Not Buying It
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Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by Not Buying It » Mon May 11, 2020 10:20 am

Most of you are old enough to remember when you were completely naked under a shield for the initiatory ceremony in the temple. I thought it was messed up enough I had to be touched on my naked lower abdomen, but over on Reddit there is a discussion where a fellow claims he was molested during his initiatory work. A couple of other users indicated the same. Personally, even as a believer I only ever did initiatories that one time because I was so uncomfortable, and I wasn't even molested.

While I found my experience distasteful, it never occurred to me that an initiatory worker might use it as an opportunity to victimize someone going through the temple for the first time. And yet, now that I think about it, it was inevitable, wasn't it? When you have hundreds of temple workers across the world who have the opportunity to touch the naked body of someone in a vulnerable position, it is going to happen sometimes.

Remember this, my friends, because in a couple of decades time when enough older members have passed on, this will go down the memory hole, and the claim will be made no one ever had to be naked under a shield while someone touched them their naked body in the temple. It isn't at all surprising they ended the practice - what is truly remarkable is how long they waited, and how recently that change was finally made.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

Mackman
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by Mackman » Mon May 11, 2020 10:30 am

I can tell you it was very very creepy !!!! I felt violated .

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon May 11, 2020 11:38 am

I was basically in some form of shock, but I'm pretty sure the dude touched my balls with his little spoon of oil or water. The day I went through for my own endowments was one of the most Fd up days of my life. I'd say the amount of cogdis I experienced that day was equivalent to the amount I experienced when my shelf broke or when I found out my wife was cheating on me in my first marriage or when I was served divorce papers at work by an officer of the law or when I was hit by a drunk driver...yup, there are about a dozen really Fd up days in my life and my LDS endowment was one of them!
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lostinmiddlemormonism
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by lostinmiddlemormonism » Mon May 11, 2020 12:38 pm

It happened to me as well.

-lost

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Not Buying It
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by Not Buying It » Mon May 11, 2020 1:39 pm

I am so, so sorry. I was hoping this was uncommon enough that none of you would have experienced it.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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moksha
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by moksha » Mon May 11, 2020 7:13 pm

There was a female poster on Beliefnet a number of years ago who thought the worker got a bit too handsy during the veil part. On the other hand, perhaps the veil worker simply had bad spatial perception and was not certain where various parts of the human anatomy were located.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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blazerb
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by blazerb » Mon May 11, 2020 8:08 pm

I never did initiatory work after my own. I don't think I ever said out loud how awful it was, but that was why I found ways to avoid it. My first time in the temple, I saw an older brother who was either getting ready to do initiatory or had just finished. He was standing there in his shield without much effort at keeping things hidden. I was a bit shocked.

I was not molested. I am so sorry that some of you were.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by Red Ryder » Mon May 11, 2020 8:28 pm

Add me to the list.

Back of the hand across my manhood as he repeats:

your loins, that you may be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth, that you might have joy in your posterity;

I remember squirming and nearly running out but the a hole acted like nothing was wrong.

I’ve literally never gone back to do an initiatory since my own.

The worst part is that you think this is normal and some sacred event. But of course you can’t talk about it because it’s sacred.

I went through in 1994 and it wasn’t until after my awakening I found out that wasn’t normal. Then in 2005, it gets leaked and changed. Then again until now it’s not even the same god damn ceremony and you stay dressed the whole time.

I’ve often thought about calling an attorney to see if there is anything to do or a class action to join.

F the temple, the church, the prophet, and Joseph Smith. I’ve given more to this god damn church and it continues to take away from my life, my sanity, and my joy.

Sorry to unload here and now.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Just This Guy
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by Just This Guy » Tue May 12, 2020 5:16 am

I didn't have any extreme, but it was defiantly a very uncomfortable experience.

Autumn 2000, Columbus OH mini-temple.

They had me strip down and put the poncho on. Of courses right at this time, they shut everything down for shift change. So I am standing around almost naked, for at least 15 minutes. I end up half hiding in a locker stall. I will give my dad credit that once it was obvious I wasn't going though right away, he started looking for someone in charge and to raise a stink.

As far as the actual initiatory, maybe because it was a mini temple and short staffed, or maybe because my dad was pushing them to get me through, one guy went through each of the stations with me, instead of a different guy at each one. While he didn't actually touch my junk, he was dam close. Well below the belt time. A half inch lower and he should have been buying me dinner.

Insanely unnerving and awkward. Needless to say, I never had the nerve to go do initiatory again.
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by Corsair » Tue May 12, 2020 9:21 am

The church has improved the initiatory to be fully clothed with not presentation of underwear involved. The real question is why this could not have been the case from the beginning. And, that the change was made with no announcement. Members found out about it via the LDS rumor mill. When I first went to the temple for my mission, the initiatory was certainly a shock. My parents tried to make this an easy transition, but It's really difficult to express how weird it was going to be without calling into question the necessity of these ordinances.

In contrast, I watched a documentary on the full process of the Eucharist in an Eastern Orthodox church. It is just as detailed and symbolic with lots of precise steps. But the full process was allowed to be filmed and observed with commentary. It made far more sense and I think this is because public scrutiny has been allowed for two thousand years. Non-believers are allowed to observe even if they don't partake of the Orthodox sacrament. The LDS endowment developed with far more secrecy and it shows. The changes we see since 1990 are a slow process of removing the weirdness of the endowment. I'm not sure they will ever succeed.

My seminary teacher relayed a quote by Spencer Kimball indicating that President Kimball was just barely coming to understand the endowment when he was an apostle. The goal was to instill reverence for the temple which did work at that time. But now it just makes it look like confused mess where they are too embarrassed to provide guidance about what is really going on here.

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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by Mackman » Tue May 12, 2020 12:48 pm

I'm with ya Red Ryder, I have had it as well !!!! When does it end I mean all the lies & cover ups !!!!!! It's all made up Bull Shit !!!! Some people in high positions in the church will be sorry in the world to come !!!!! When will the church become compassionate to sexual abuse survivors ??? Oh they cant because they dont care and they want to provide more opportunity for some very messed up weird old men to touch someone else and ruin their lives !!!

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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by Hagoth » Tue May 12, 2020 1:06 pm

Gee, it's almost as if the initiatory ordinance was designed to allow someone who is in a position of authority to touch the naked body of someone who has been placed in a very vulnerable position, and then coerce them into swearing that they will keep it a secret or suffer dire consequences. Hmm, what kind of person would design such a situation?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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MoPag
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by MoPag » Tue May 12, 2020 8:29 pm

Holy sh!t!! I'm so sorry that happened to you guys. So f*cked up!

I was post naked touching.
Hagoth wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 1:06 pm
Gee, it's almost as if the initiatory ordinance was designed to allow someone who is in a position of authority to touch the naked body of someone who has been placed in a very vulnerable position, and then coerce them into swearing that they will keep it a secret or suffer dire consequences. Hmm, what kind of person would design such a situation?
^^^this is like grooming 101.
*shudders*
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believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Hagoth
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by Hagoth » Wed May 13, 2020 5:59 am

I can only imagine what it was like in the early days. Certainly quite different from today. The Salt Lake temple was fitted with bathtubs for the ordinance:
Image

From Oliver Cowdery's journal I get the impression that participants would remove their clothes and do a mutual rub down. He wrote, "And after pure water was prepared, called upon the Lord and proceeded to wash each other’s bodies, and bathe the same with whiskey, perfumed with cinnamon."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by Palerider » Wed May 13, 2020 9:50 am

I'm just curious if in the very early church (say Nauvoo) if men were performing this ordinance on the women? Or have women always been set apart to do it?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by Red Ryder » Wed May 13, 2020 10:03 am

Palerider wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 9:50 am
I'm just curious if in the very early church (say Nauvoo) if men were performing this ordinance on the women? Or have women always been set apart to do it?
My guess is Joseph smith performed the ordinance on the women. Then when the other church leaders got jealous Joseph allowed them to partake.

Frontier sex cult is the only description that fits.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Palerider
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by Palerider » Wed May 13, 2020 12:05 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 10:03 am
Palerider wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 9:50 am
I'm just curious if in the very early church (say Nauvoo) if men were performing this ordinance on the women? Or have women always been set apart to do it?
My guess is Joseph smith performed the ordinance on the women. Then when the other church leaders got jealous Joseph allowed them to partake.

Frontier sex cult is the only description that fits.
Just did a little reading on this and it seems Joseph probably did the initiatory with Emma and then she probably did so with the rest of the women.

But thinking on that, maybe the men did their own wives and then would Joseph have done his polygamous wives in secret? Or would he have secretly done his first polygamous wife and then had her do the rest?

Hmmm......
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Red Ryder
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by Red Ryder » Wed May 13, 2020 2:51 pm

Palerider, do you have any links where you were reading about this? I’m interested to see how it evolved over time.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Palerider
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by Palerider » Wed May 13, 2020 8:38 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:51 pm
Palerider, do you have any links where you were reading about this? I’m interested to see how it evolved over time.
More reading yet:

"We were first received past the Guard into a private room on the north side of the Temple--this was the room of preparation or purification.

��'We were divested of all our apparel, and in a state of perfect nudity we were washed from heat to foot--a blanket was then thrown about our persons, and then commencing at the head we were anointed from heat to foot with sweet oil scented (I think) with lavender. We were then clothed in a white robe.

��All this was done by sisters in the Church--none others were present--t is false to say that men and women are admitted together in an indecent manner."

The above is an account by an exmormon woman in 1845.

It is found in a book by a man named Brueger. See reference here:

https://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon525.htm

Trying to find previous references. :roll:
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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deacon blues
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Re: Horrifying Initiatory Story on Reddit

Post by deacon blues » Thu May 14, 2020 10:06 am

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL/sign1846.htm This is a reference to a site called "Uncle Dale's Early Mormon readings that confirms what you found, Rider. What a tangled web....... :roll:
God is Love. God is Truth

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