NOM

My DS that returned from his mish almost a year ago now, has been having a faith transition. He read the CES letter and is currently reading "Saints" and following the footnotes, which he says is quite an eye opener.

I can have conversations with him now, and I don't feel quite so isolated. (Although DW wants us to keep the conversations on the down-low so as not to rock any boats.) He is very open minded, but is trying to be careful about his study of church history to take in both sides.

Sounds like some genuine father-son bonding is going to happen here. Good for you.

Excellent. "Saints" itself is propaganda, but it at least engages some of the issues.

Rock the boat!

Here’s the difference in perspective:

It could mean a year from now you're shopping with the wife for new undies.

If that doesn’t pan out, it could mean a year from now you’re shopping with a new girlfriend for new undies!

While I’m at it:

Man my life would be different if I had figured it out post mission and pre marriage.

Man my wife would be different if I had figured it out post mission and pre marriage.

In all sincerity I have to say you’ve done a great job so far. You have gone slow and it’s working!

slavereeno wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 10:37 am

... trying to be careful about his study of church history to take in both sides.

Hey! I tried that too.

And here I am...

By end of summer you may go out boating and enjoy a few beers together...rock the boat.

slavereeno wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 10:37 am

My DS that returned from his mish almost a year ago now, has been having a faith transition. He read the CES letter and is currently reading "Saints" and following the footnotes, which he says is quite an eye opener.

I can have conversations with him now, and I don't feel quite so isolated. (Although DW wants us to keep the conversations on the down-low so as not to rock any boats.) He is very open minded, but is trying to be careful about his study of church history to take in both sides.

Yay slavereeno!! It must be really hard not to throw everything out now that you finally have someone to commiserate with. Take care and let your wife see you give him space. At the same time, hopefully a second witness will her her sees there really is a normal every day man behind the curtain rather than the great and powerful Oz.

slavereeno wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 10:37 am

My DS that returned from his mish almost a year ago now, has been having a faith transition. He read the CES letter and is currently reading "Saints" and following the footnotes, which he says is quite an eye opener.

How cool is that? It's so crazy to me how some people will cross that bridge and avoid it forever, some will peek and then run, and then some will dive in and try to figure it out.

If he's reading Saints, have him read my chapter by chapter review which did cover the footnote problems a lot... it's honestly been a while so I can't remember all of it, but I remember pointing out how they sourced stuff often because it really showed where they were still being deceptive. And you can tell him you've been there to help out the person who wrote it during his "faith journey" or whatever we want to call it.

slavereeno wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 10:37 am

My DS that returned from his mish almost a year ago now, has been having a faith transition. He read the CES letter and is currently reading "Saints" and following the footnotes, which he says is quite an eye opener.

Congratulations! It's a great relief to have family members who will engage with you on these deep issues. Good luck moving forward.

slavereeno wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 10:37 am

My DS that returned from his mish almost a year ago now, has been having a faith transition. He read the CES letter and is currently reading "Saints" and following the footnotes, which he says is quite an eye opener.

I can have conversations with him now, and I don't feel quite so isolated. (Although DW wants us to keep the conversations on the down-low so as not to rock any boats.) He is very open minded, but is trying to be careful about his study of church history to take in both sides.

Congrats Salvareeno. I dream of the day when I can talk openly with my daughters about this stuff.

The day has come with the wife. You would think that would make it easy with the kids too, but DW doesn't want to blow up the family.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 10:39 am

Sounds like some genuine father-son bonding is going to happen here. Good for you.

Yes, what I don't want to do is become closer to DS2 and at the same time alienate DS1 who is also an RM but has dug in his heels a bit.

deacon blues wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 2:34 pm

Excellent. "Saints" itself is propaganda, but it at least engages some of the issues.

Yes, so far DS2 has been really frustrated by Saints, he is finding a very slanted and dismissive tone to it.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 3:42 pm

In all sincerity I have to say you’ve done a great job so far. You have gone slow and it’s working!

Slow is the masochist's way to do this! Haha, why deal with the pain for 6 months and move on when you can drag it out over years and years!

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 4:13 pm

Hey! I tried that too.

And here I am...

This seems to be the direction he is headed. Or he will at least be be chill and nuanced at any rate.

2bizE wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 5:36 pm

By end of summer you may go out boating and enjoy a few beers together...rock the boat.

That would be fun, but I made a promise... so no beer for me.

græy wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 6:58 pm

Yay slavereeno!! It must be really hard not to throw everything out now that you finally have someone to commiserate with. Take care and let your wife see you give him space. At the same time, hopefully a second witness will her her sees there really is a normal every day man behind the curtain rather than the great and powerful Oz.

COVID has been kind of nice as far as church goes, as in no SS lessons for me to teach and no church to attend. I am already as mentally done with the church as one can be!

jfro18 wrote: ↑

Thu May 21, 2020 9:41 am

If he's reading Saints, have him read my chapter by chapter review which did cover the footnote problems a lot... it's honestly been a while so I can't remember all of it, but I remember pointing out how they sourced stuff often because it really showed where they were still being deceptive. And you can tell him you've been there to help out the person who wrote it during his "faith journey" or whatever we want to call it.

He would like that, can you remind me where I can find it?

Corsair wrote: ↑

Thu May 21, 2020 1:19 pm

Congratulations! It's a great relief to have family members who will engage with you on these deep issues. Good luck moving forward.

Thanks! Yeah it has been nice. He has a good friend who has also read the CES Letter and is faith-transitioning also so they have been talking to each other as well.

MalcolmVillager wrote: ↑

Thu May 21, 2020 8:17 pm

Congrats Salvareeno. I dream of the day when I can talk openly with my daughters about this stuff.

The day has come with the wife. You would think that would make it easy with the kids too, but DW doesn't want to blow up the family.

I have had some surprising conversations with DW, but like your wife, she is very worried about blowing up the family.

slavereeno wrote: ↑

Fri May 22, 2020 9:14 am

jfro18 wrote: ↑

Thu May 21, 2020 9:41 am

If he's reading Saints, have him read my chapter by chapter review which did cover the footnote problems a lot... it's honestly been a while so I can't remember all of it, but I remember pointing out how they sourced stuff often because it really showed where they were still being deceptive. And you can tell him you've been there to help out the person who wrote it during his "faith journey" or whatever we want to call it.

He would like that, can you remind me where I can find it?

It is @ https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/saints

In hindsight I really wish I had formatted it better and had a chapter on each page. When I started it I did not realize how cumbersome it would get, so I just broke it up into sections as I think the Saints book did as well. Maybe some day I'll do a quick break up, but that won't be any time soon with work being a bit overwhelming due to COVID issues.