Changes

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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slavereeno
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Changes

Post by slavereeno » Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:51 am

Things are changing around here.

DW started reading "Letter for my Wife," her question:

All the new information is making her head swim. A lot of information about the church seems downright crazy (polygamy, rock in the hat, anachronisms, psychedelics, etc. etc.) How can she know that she is not just following some crazy new conspiracy about the church? How come everybody in the church isn't getting out, if even half of the stuff is true? Is this stuff really real and if so, how can she defend a viewpoint against the church with her very TBM family?

We have a sister or two on her side and BIL on my side that get into a LOT of conspiracy theories that are ridiculous. If they can get sucked in by that sort of thing, how can she know all the anti-church stuff isn't just our flavor of conspiracy?

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jfro18
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Re: Changes

Post by jfro18 » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:30 am

That's actually a great point by DW, and I think one of the problems with LFMY or the CES Letter is that it's so many topics packed into one piece of info that it kind of feels like it's just too much.

And to that point when I read the CES Letter my wife asked that I read the FAIR response, and when I did it kind of felt like the CES Letter was running loose with the facts.

Apologists are really good and doing divide and conquer, where they take each topic and make you feel like you're reading into unfounded anti-Mormon lies even though their apologetics actually open up a ton of problems if you dive deeper.

You know all this though, so I'm preaching to the choir. I think that's a big part of why my wife refused to finish LFMY and just stuck with FAIR, because she felt like LFMY was unproven and thus was taking a bunch of random issues and creating a grand conspiracy from them. Two years later and she is just as retrenched.

I guess let her take it slowly and my one piece of advice would be to do each topic separately... it gets really messy when you try to do it all at once because it's easy to get sidetracked by apologetics.

I know she probably has no interest to talking to us here, but if she ever has questions that she wants more input on you can PM me anytime... I did that with a couple here locally and it worked out well because the person's wife was incredibly cautious in opening up, but she would send a question here or there and I would reply to her questions and give sources, etc.

Anyway - it sounds promising and I hope it ends up opening her up to learning these issues if nothing else. :)

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Journey
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Re: Changes

Post by Journey » Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:57 am

Would she read the essays? They are included with all the other material that she probably/possibly regularly uses on the official website. Would she doubt those were true?

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Red Ryder
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Re: Changes

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:05 pm

First thoughts:

I need to introduce you to another couple that has been through this. He was out first and on NOM while she was figuring it out. What helped them/her was talking through it with another couple when they were in your exact situation.

Second:

Have her look for the universal patterns that exist. Polygamy? Why do religious founders end up having sexual with their members?

Why do organizations employ changing narratives, whitewashing, and carefully worded denials?

Point out the institutional dishonesty. It’s everywhere.

Third:

I have to voice a warning. Many couples who go through this together end in divorce when they realize their marriage was 99% based on the church. If your relationship is built on real love and dedication to each other it will survive. Work on your relationship through all of this.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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græy
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Re: Changes

Post by græy » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:06 pm

Congratulations man! Just yesterday my wife told me she wouldn't do any study of church history because "what would the kids do is both of us decided the church wasn't true?" It turns out she was worried that they wouldn't get properly raised in the church if we both determined it wasn't true. I pointed out the circular logic in that line of thinking, to which she agreed, but held her position. :roll:

I agree with the advice given. If you know another couple who have been where you are, try to meet up or speak with them.

And take it slow. If she is concerned about being fed lies, then take it one topic at a time, and research both sides of that topic thoroughly. Don't overwhelm her with the whole of LTMW all at once.
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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slavereeno
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Re: Changes

Post by slavereeno » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:25 pm

Journey wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:57 am
Would she read the essays? They are included with all the other material that she probably/possibly regularly uses on the official website. Would she doubt those were true?
She has read some, and realizes that the issues are substantial and real, but the whole thing feels wrong to her.

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slavereeno
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Re: Changes

Post by slavereeno » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:32 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:30 am
That's actually a great point by DW, and I think one of the problems with LFMY or the CES Letter is that it's so many topics packed into one piece of info that it kind of feels like it's just too much.
Yes, I warned her they are really just a basic introduction, not a deep look at any of the topics.
jfro18 wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:30 am
I know she probably has no interest to talking to us here, but if she ever has questions that she wants more input on you can PM me anytime... I did that with a couple here locally and it worked out well because the person's wife was incredibly cautious in opening up, but she would send a question here or there and I would reply to her questions and give sources, etc.
She knows I am on here and has even asked me to pose many of these question to you all to get additional perspective. I have read many of the replies to her.

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slavereeno
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Re: Changes

Post by slavereeno » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:38 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:05 pm
I need to introduce you to another couple that has been through this. He was out first and on NOM while she was figuring it out. What helped them/her was talking through it with another couple when they were in your exact situation.
This would be good, we recently had the opportunity to meet with a couple we have known for years who are in the same situation but reversed. It was unbelievably helpful. It would be nice to expand the circle a little. I just don't know about timing. I am feeling deeply for DW right now, she is feeling the vertigo of falling at the moment.
Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:05 pm
Have her look for the universal patterns that exist. Polygamy? Why do religious founders end up having sexual with their members?

Why do organizations employ changing narratives, whitewashing, and carefully worded denials?

Point out the institutional dishonesty. It’s everywhere.
This is a good point, and worth repeating.

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:05 pm
I have to voice a warning. Many couples who go through this together end in divorce when they realize their marriage was 99% based on the church. If your relationship is built on real love and dedication to each other it will survive. Work on your relationship through all of this.
:cry: I hope not. Its taken three years to get to where we are and its not been without a lot of tears, and pain. I hope we make it out with our scars.

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slavereeno
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Re: Changes

Post by slavereeno » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:38 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:05 pm
I need to introduce you to another couple that has been through this. He was out first and on NOM while she was figuring it out. What helped them/her was talking through it with another couple when they were in your exact situation.
This would be good, we recently had the opportunity to meet with a couple we have known for years who are in the same situation but reversed. It was unbelievably helpful. It would be nice to expand the circle a little. I just don't know about timing. I am feeling deeply for DW right now, she is experiencing the vertigo of her world falling out from underneath her feet at the moment.
Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:05 pm
Have her look for the universal patterns that exist. Polygamy? Why do religious founders end up having sexual with their members?

Why do organizations employ changing narratives, whitewashing, and carefully worded denials?

Point out the institutional dishonesty. It’s everywhere.
This is a good point, and worth repeating.

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:05 pm
I have to voice a warning. Many couples who go through this together end in divorce when they realize their marriage was 99% based on the church. If your relationship is built on real love and dedication to each other it will survive. Work on your relationship through all of this.
:cry: I hope not. Its taken three years to get to where we are and its not been without a lot of tears, and pain. I hope we make it out with our scars.
[/quote]

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slavereeno
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Re: Changes

Post by slavereeno » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:48 pm

græy wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:06 pm
Congratulations man! Just yesterday my wife told me she wouldn't do any study of church history because "what would the kids do is both of us decided the church wasn't true?" It turns out she was worried that they wouldn't get properly raised in the church if we both determined it wasn't true. I pointed out the circular logic in that line of thinking, to which she agreed, but held her position. :roll:
My wife has felt the same way for a while. We have carved out time each sunday to read or watch something ethically or spiritually significant and discuss it as a family. We told the kids that these discussion would no longer be religious or dogmatic but rather spiritual and open. Our kids are teens and young adults. We have done Aesops fables, parables from the New Testament, classic literature, history, poetry and philosophy. Last week we read and discussed Harrison Begeron. Our kids are actually interested, excited and engaged to have these discussions, which is not the way it was with the old religious discussions. This has helped DW feel that we are still teaching our children, lately we have had to time-box the discussions and decide which, among the many, topics to do next.
græy wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:06 pm
I agree with the advice given. If you know another couple who have been where you are, try to meet up or speak with them.

And take it slow. If she is concerned about being fed lies, then take it one topic at a time, and research both sides of that topic thoroughly. Don't overwhelm her with the whole of LTMW all at once.
I know... I need to be more patient. I am trying.

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Hagoth
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Re: Changes

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:06 pm

Whether or not a spouse ever changes their basic belief in the church, I think the most important thing is for them to realize that YOU actually have legitimate reasons to back up your parallax shift. Even if they are unable to cross that scary line knowing some of this stuff helps them understand why you might have lost the ability to make the choice to believe.

A couple of days ago Mrs. Hagoth was reading me some quotes. One was by Albert Einstein: "The mind that opens to a new idea never returns to its original size. She said, "That's like you and the church, isn't it?" I thought that was very insightful.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Changes

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:35 am

She should read the church essays, then the Faith Crisis Report, which was the catalyst of the essays. It should be the proof she needs to help her see that those controversial topics are actually not conspiracy theories are simply historical facts the church chose not to talk about until recently but now they are trying to catch up with them and ease members into them as well. Little subtle changes, like the intro to the BOM and hundreds of other examples of how a religion that purports is doctrines don't change, is forced to change over time. Adapt or die.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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StarbucksMom
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Re: Changes

Post by StarbucksMom » Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:11 pm

Slavereeno, I am happy for you but I can tell also from your recent posts it’s not all easy. My husband is still putting his hands over his ears and shouting “la la la.” So we basically almost never discuss issues. How was it that your wife read that letter? I have never heard of it, but I’m curious if you wouldn’t mind sharing why she read it, how she found it, etc. Was there an event or something that started her doubting? I desperately want my husband out so our family can find and get involved in a Christian church with a good and fun youth group for my kids. But I have kind of given up hope, he just doesn’t care what the issues are. RMN could be an axe murderer and he would say “but I know the BOM is true” even though he barely reads it.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Changes

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:22 am

slavereeno wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:51 am
If they can get sucked in by that sort of thing, how can she know all the anti-church stuff isn't just our flavor of conspiracy?
Maybe take a step back from the details and just do a face value analysis with her. Walk through the mormon plan of happiness on it's main topics and look at it from a more factual perspective. What are the flaws in Gods plan? Like the bi-polar nature of God from what we know in the scriptures and how only a few of his kids, usually a very small percentages, are special and others are not. Most of them he kills off at will because they made him angry; is that how we should treat our children? Consider evolution of ideas created in the bible cultures that grew into something they were not, that are not supported by archaeological and historical evidence, like the 12 tribes of the Hebrews, being enslaved by Egyptians or the idea of Satan. The idea that someday you, as a God, would have to execute a plan on your own planet whereby you or your first born must be sacrificed, that only .02% of your kids would ever make it to the super VIP kingdom with you and the rest are TK smoothies or in the pit with this Satan character. Or how would your wife really feel, sitting in the big marble palace of tall curtains, pumping out billions of spirits for eternity while you enjoy the Peter Priesthood life with potentially many other wives. Think of the pain you go through as parents of just a few kids, the multiply that by billions; but then if you really cared that much about them, would you let Satan take a 3rd? Would you subject them to an unfair test of wits on your planet? Like putting dinosaur bones in the ground to confuse them and also thousands of other religions, all claiming to be the one? What are the chances of success of God's plan on this planet, what are the odds some your kids to actually pass the test? Seems pretty Fd up to me!

Look at snipits from the history, like how Joseph F. tore out that page on the first vision; I mean, why the hell would a "prophet" be so scared of the truth like that?!

Another option to a deep dive into all the facts and history is to just take a break from it and run the experiment: Is my life better or worse without the church? What if there were no more an angel and devil on my shoulder, no more fear and guilt you carry as a member about all that made up dogma. What if you just lived life and loved and nothing else? Take some Sundays and just go out into nature and soak it in for what it is and what you are, just a living sentient big brained ape on a tiny blue orb, one of billions in a spiral galaxy that is one of trillions in the vastness of the universe that is expanding faster than the speed of light in all directions. To which there may be no purpose at all or perhaps the only purpose is to look up at it and appreciate it and consider it, nothing else.

To take a break from conspiracy, I'd recommend https://ourworldindata.org/ website. Just look at numbers of things and decide if the doomsayers are right. Then look at those numbers of TSCC members, compared to the number in the world right now. Consider how many of those spirit kids, according to mormon god, didn't even get the chance to come to earth, how many billions!? Consider it's the last days and how many super special kids even got that 2nd anointing....the rest are still a big question mark as to where they land. If you have potentially a trillion kids...that's your plan!? Just save like 144,444 of them? (I know, that's JW crap, but consider how many mormons get the 2nd anointing and that number starts to look legit).
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Red Ryder
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Re: Changes

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:17 am

StarbucksMom wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:11 pm
Slavereeno, I am happy for you but I can tell also from your recent posts it’s not all easy. My husband is still putting his hands over his ears and shouting “la la la.” So we basically almost never discuss issues. How was it that your wife read that letter? I have never heard of it, but I’m curious if you wouldn’t mind sharing why she read it, how she found it, etc. Was there an event or something that started her doubting? I desperately want my husband out so our family can find and get involved in a Christian church with a good and fun youth group for my kids. But I have kind of given up hope, he just doesn’t care what the issues are. RMN could be an axe murderer and he would say “but I know the BOM is true” even though he barely reads it.
Letter to my wife was written by a guy on Reddit who came up with a list of reasons to explain to his wife why his faith was challenged and eventually lost. May have felt the CES letter tone was too harsh and this letter is a softer tone directed to his wife. If I recall his user name was JeffreyRrrrrHolland or something like that.

https://www.letterformywife.com/

He recently popped back up on Reddit giving an update that they were divorcing and that his wife to this day has never read the letter.

Sad but not surprising.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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slavereeno
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Re: Changes

Post by slavereeno » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:01 pm

StarbucksMom wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:11 pm
Slavereeno, I am happy for you but I can tell also from your recent posts it’s not all easy. My husband is still putting his hands over his ears and shouting “la la la.” So we basically almost never discuss issues. How was it that your wife read that letter? I have never heard of it, but I’m curious if you wouldn’t mind sharing why she read it, how she found it, etc. Was there an event or something that started her doubting? I desperately want my husband out so our family can find and get involved in a Christian church with a good and fun youth group for my kids. But I have kind of given up hope, he just doesn’t care what the issues are. RMN could be an axe murderer and he would say “but I know the BOM is true” even though he barely reads it.
I don't think there is any formula here. She has slowly become more open and thoughtful as we talked about how to run our lives as a mixed faith family. Then my adult RM son #2 has been having his faith transition, that made it more accessible. Then we met an influential couple we know that are also transitioning. In that couple it was the wife that got out first and hearing her story first hand opened the door to reading Letter for my Wife. She didn't like reading it all. She really likes church, she loves the people and the community and the morals. She would say now that she no longer believes it is what it claims to be, but there is still a lot she loves about it. Not sure what will happen next.

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slavereeno
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Re: Changes

Post by slavereeno » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:07 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:22 am
To take a break from conspiracy, I'd recommend https://ourworldindata.org/ website. Just look at numbers of things and decide if the doomsayers are right. Then look at those numbers of TSCC members, compared to the number in the world right now. Consider how many of those spirit kids, according to mormon god, didn't even get the chance to come to earth, how many billions!? Consider it's the last days and how many super special kids even got that 2nd anointing....the rest are still a big question mark as to where they land. If you have potentially a trillion kids...that's your plan!? Just save like 144,444 of them? (I know, that's JW crap, but consider how many mormons get the 2nd anointing and that number starts to look legit).
I think she just has a lot to process right now, but we did look at real data and facts. Fortunately, she is has very logical mind, and it seems she has already come to the conclusion that the church is not as it says, the one true church. However, dealing with family and friends feels icky now, and there is so much loss of connection in this process, that you feel isolated and obscure by comparison to almost literally everyone you know. Both our families are like "Mormon back to Adam" My Grandmother was a Smith for example.

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slavereeno
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Re: Changes

Post by slavereeno » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:08 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:17 am
Letter to my wife was written by a guy on Reddit who came up with a list of reasons to explain to his wife why his faith was challenged and eventually lost. May have felt the CES letter tone was too harsh and this letter is a softer tone directed to his wife. If I recall his user name was JeffreyRrrrrHolland or something like that.
This, thanks for fielding this one RR.

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slavereeno
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Re: Changes

Post by slavereeno » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:12 pm

UPDATE:

DS 1,2 and DIL (all RMs) are mentally out now, after reading the CES Letter. DS 3 is mentally out and currently not planning on a mission. DD 1&2 don't know what to think but want to stay involved because all their friends are Mormon. DW is most likely mentally out as well.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Changes

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:47 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:12 pm
UPDATE:

DS 1,2 and DIL (all RMs) are mentally out now, after reading the CES Letter. DS 3 is mentally out and currently not planning on a mission. DD 1&2 don't know what to think but want to stay involved because all their friends are Mormon. DW is most likely mentally out as well.
Wow. Seems things are changing fast around your family. Hope the pandemic break from church will push everyone to find new things to do on sundays.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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