I'm not a fan of vandalism, but the point is hard to argue

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Hagoth
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I'm not a fan of vandalism, but the point is hard to argue

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:27 am

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/statu ... r-BB15JmU4


"You must not think, from what I say, that I am opposed to slavery. No! The negro is damned, and is to serve his master till God chooses to remove the curse of Ham."

"Any man having one drop of the seed of Cain in him Cannot hold the priesthood & if no other Prophet ever spake it Before I will say it now in the name of Jesus Christ. . . ."

"Let me consent to day to mingle my seed with the seed of Cane. It would Bring the same curse upon me . . . And if any man mingles his seed with the seed of Cane the only way he could get rid of it or have salvation would be to Come forward & have his head Cut off & spill his Blood upon the ground. It would also take the life of his Children. . . ."

"Were the children of God to mingle their seed with the seed of Cain it would not only bring the curse of being deprived of the power of the priesthood upon themselves but they entail it upon their children after them, and they cannot get rid of it. If a man in an unguarded moment should commit such a transgression, if he would walk up and say cut off my head, and kill man woman and child it would do a great deal towards atoning for the sin. Would this be to curse them? No it would be a blessing to them. -- it would do them good that they might be saved with their Brethren. A man would shudder should they hear us talk about killing folk, but it is one of the greatest blessings to some to kill them, although the true principles of it are not understood."


Could have been worse:
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“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: I'm not a fan of vandalism, but the point is hard to argue

Post by jfro18 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:44 am

This will cause so many Mormons to feel that persecution complex though. I guarantee my wife when she sees it will as she takes *any* vandalism towards church property as an attack on the church itself. Ugh.

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wtfluff
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Re: I'm not a fan of vandalism, but the point is hard to argue

Post by wtfluff » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:07 am

Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long.

And yes, the persecution complex will be (is) quite interesting when it comes to this.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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alas
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Re: I'm not a fan of vandalism, but the point is hard to argue

Post by alas » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:01 am

Bednar will add this to his list of how our religious freedom is being attacked.

Mackman
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Re: I'm not a fan of vandalism, but the point is hard to argue

Post by Mackman » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:31 am

I'm also not a fan of vandalism but Kudos to whoever did this !!!!! It's about time TBMs see and hear what kind of Racist BY was!!!!!

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jfro18
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Re: I'm not a fan of vandalism, but the point is hard to argue

Post by jfro18 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:11 pm

FWIW, DW is pissed about this.

We were talking about the statues and I said I could understand why people want them gone, and without mentioning the BY statue she said "How would people like it if I went to an MLK Jr statue and spray painted misogynist on it?"

It makes me so depressed I am just at a loss for words sometimes.

dogbite
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Re: I'm not a fan of vandalism, but the point is hard to argue

Post by dogbite » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:12 pm

The peril of raising up flawed humans as ideals.

Rather, raise up monuments to ideals.

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moksha
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Re: I'm not a fan of vandalism, but the point is hard to argue

Post by moksha » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:10 am

Image
Such nonsense about the Curse of Ham. Look, if you cook it properly ham is perfectly safe!
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Give It Time
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Re: I'm not a fan of vandalism, but the point is hard to argue

Post by Give It Time » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:30 am

When people started saying they wanted the name of BYU changed, I thought that would never happen. Then I saw the vandalized statue. Yeah, I'm not a fan of vandalism either, but I looked at it and thought, "Yeah, that'll do it". It's made national news, now. Hard to not change the name of the school, now.

Alas's comment about Bednar was gold.

And MLK was a misogynist.

I agree. It's better to build statues to ideals, rather than people.

Ham is good, but I prefer corned beef.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Random
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Re: I'm not a fan of vandalism, but the point is hard to argue

Post by Random » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:47 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:27 am
A man would shudder should they hear us talk about killing folk, but it is one of the greatest blessings to some to kill them,
This kind of thinking is disturbing, and it's reflected in the Vallow-Daybell case. Even though that has nothing to do with skin color, it's still the same mindset.

As far as I can tell, the man was downright evil. To believe, let alone teach it as something of God, that one should be killed for marrying a man or woman of their choice is satanic, especially if the fatal crime is that someone's skin has more melanin in it. Might as well give Brigham the death penalty for marrying a brunette (or maybe someone with brown eyes).
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: I'm not a fan of vandalism, but the point is hard to argue

Post by Random » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:49 pm

moksha wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:10 am
Such nonsense about the Curse of Ham. Look, if you cook it properly ham is perfectly safe!
Ham is the best meat in existence. Curse, nothing!
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

Reuben
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Re: I'm not a fan of vandalism, but the point is hard to argue

Post by Reuben » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:06 pm

dogbite wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:12 pm
The peril of raising up flawed humans as ideals.

Rather, raise up monuments to ideals.
Not sure it would help. Mormon temples are partly monuments to ideals, some good, some bad: strong families, but also a narrow view of allowable families and a divisive ideal of spiritual purity.

The occasional furor over explicitly Judeo-Christian monuments comes to mind, too.

We'll always feel a need to retire our monuments. I wish we could find the maturity and honesty to do it before the property damage starts.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Linked
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Re: I'm not a fan of vandalism, but the point is hard to argue

Post by Linked » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:43 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:11 pm
FWIW, DW is pissed about this.

We were talking about the statues and I said I could understand why people want them gone, and without mentioning the BY statue she said "How would people like it if I went to an MLK Jr statue and spray painted misogynist on it?"

It makes me so depressed I am just at a loss for words sometimes.
I first saw this on twitter Saturday in posts from TBMs and it was all about how terrible it was to vandalize the statue, and that this should be considered a hate crime. The purpose of the vandalism went right over their heads.

It did lead to a fairly high profile (in the Utah media market) twitter conversation between a BYU announcer and a black reporter who reports on the Jazz which hopefully changed some minds.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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