What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

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Red Ryder
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What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:12 pm

What does everyone think the future of anti-Mormonism looks like?

The Tanner’s really did the heavy lifting from the 1960’s through the 1990’s. Ed Decker and the God Maker’s film was supported by the evangelical churches warning people about Mormonism.

From the mid 1990’s through 2010, the internet became a household thing and websites like exmormon.org, mormonthink, and numerous other discussion boards and websites played significant roles in unveiling the whitewashed history leading up to the church developing the Gospel Topic Essays.

Then in 2012 as Romney ran for President the mainstream media criticized and fueled even more unfavorable sentiment towards Mormonism.

In recent years individual contributors like John Dehlin, Jeremy Runnels, Kate Kelly, Sam Young have stepped forward as agitators with their individual products and grass root movements that have forced the church to address specific issues and make necessary changes. During this time sites like Reddit and Facebook have become platforms to raise awareness of church issues leading to many people resigning from the church.

So what is next? More individual’s stepping up to agitate for change? What issues would they agitate for to change?
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Hagoth
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:29 pm

Maybe more people calling out the Q15 directly and publicly, and challenging them to come out of hiding and respond to issues?

More street epistemology? Going out and talking to people and trying to have friendly conversations to lead them through steps of critical thinking?

The way things are going right now I think the biggest "anti-Mormon" threat to the church may have little to do with "anti-Mormons." The real threat is the next generation just waking up to the church's built-in bigotry, racism, misogyny, and science denial. 21st century kids aren't nearly as afraid of black people, gay people, thinking women, and educated people as their grandparents were.
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Mackman » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:34 pm

I think the next thing will be similar to the Coc that is you won't have to believe in the Bom !!!!!

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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:46 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:29 pm
Maybe more people calling out the Q15 directly and publicly, and challenging them to come out of hiding and respond to issues?

More street epistemology? Going out and talking to people and trying to have friendly conversations to lead them through steps of critical thinking?

The way things are going right now I think the biggest "anti-Mormon" threat to the church may have little to do with "anti-Mormons." The real threat is the next generation just waking up to the church's built-in bigotry, racism, misogyny, and science denial. 21st century kids aren't nearly as afraid of black people, gay people, thinking women, and educated people as their grandparents were.
Only one of my three children is still active. He went on a mission, married in the temple, and is going to BYUI. Even so, he often tells me that he is dismayed with the thought processes of a lot of members and with their prejudices and lack of basic humanity towards minority groups.

The other two are completely inactive, but the church just doesn't interest them. They have no anger or lingering issues -- well, actually my daughter has some bitterness over the modesty standards we enforced on her when she was in YW, but other than that she has moved on and it's just not applicable to her life. I tend to agree with Hagoth: you have to be carefully taught to fear and despise those who are different and the church mostly isn't teaching this generation very effectively.
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by 2bizE » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:14 pm

Until the last 10 years, anti-Mormon referred to blatant lies levied at the church. Those lies, such as Joseph Smith Polygamy and polyandry, magic seer stones, Book of Abraham translation, have turned out to not be lies, but actual truths.
What is anti-Mormon now? I’m not sure. I project a change in verbiage or classification of what is really anti-Mormon. Perhaps the word, non-faith promoting or non-consensual sharing of Mormon history will be used. The only anti-Mormon stories I can think of are ones like the 1800s newspaper that wrote Mormons had horns and could dive off the temple into the great salt lake.
I think there will continue to be a push to reclassify Joseph Smith’s work to be through revelation rather than translation. I know of nothing he actually translated now that I know what really happened.
I think this will learn to people learning more of the bat-$hit crazy stuff we have grown up believing...the millennials and Gen z will just quietly walk away leaving us Boomers and GenX to kick against the pricks.
~2bizE

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Hagoth
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:12 pm

2bizE wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:14 pm
What is anti-Mormon now?
I think maybe it is becoming more about questioning authority and the pre-eminence of the temple than about questioning history and doctrine. And I think a much larger percentage is coming from inside (i.e. from disaffected members), compared to the old-school anti-Mormonism that came from other religions hoping to de-converting Mormon into their own brand of religion.

The likely new apologetic response will be who cares about how we got here? All that's important is that we have a prophet, real honest-to-goodness priesthood power, and the saving temple ordinances. You can only get those from God, and His ways are not our ways God moved in mysterious ways to make that happen but, oh happy day, here we are.
2bizE wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:14 pm
...the millennials and Gen z will just quietly walk away leaving us Boomers and GenX to kick against the pricks.
Maybe the next generation of anti-Mormonism will be people saying, "remember how nice it was to not have to go to church during the pandemic? You can keep doing that."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:19 pm

Seems the growth rate has already stagnated, so their population will be primarily based on having more babies and I think even that rate could or has declined?

Their missionary efforts have come and gone. I mean, what other bag of tricks are left? Lower the age to 16? It's like the Feds having no more tools for economic influence other than to print more money and make more debt, the interest rates have been close to zero for a very long time now with no signs of moving up anytime soon. And think of the impact of COVID on missionary efforts, really a game changer. I don't see anything TSCC has to offer the world that makes it attractive, unless they start handing out those billions to entice people in. I guess they could lower tithing or kill the funny underwear, but then you are on the path to watering everything down and how does another Unitarian Christian faith thrive in this day and age?

I think they will continue to preach their new narrative that "The righteous will be few because of the wicked." They can ride that gravy train on the TBMs they have as long as they can, growing their assets as big as they can. The few left at the top in the future will enjoy generations of financial comfort while the religion slowly deflates over the next century. They will try to minimize their legal risks, which forces them to water down more social issues over time.

Given there's not some global catastrophe that throws us back into the dark ages, but even then...who knows. So I would guess there will still be a few anti members as they discover the truth, but overall it's just going to become less of a thing more and more as TSCC becomes less of a thing.
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Red Ryder
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:33 pm

Great comments.

I too think indifference will become the next anti-mormon agenda. Too many people have now tasted the sweet nectar of absence.

The church will pin it as an attack on religious freedom and continue to flail it’s arms in an attempt to stay relevant.

Then Oaks will become the Prophet we all thought Elder Packer would have been had he lived long enough to ascend to the throne.

Oaks will be the hardliner who pushes the progressives out.

The next 10 years will be fun to watch from the outside but intolerable for those on the inside trying to make it work.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by wtfluff » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:06 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:12 pm
What does everyone think the future of anti-Mormonism looks like?

...

So what is next? More individual’s stepping up to agitate for change? What issues would they agitate for to change?
I personally wouldn't be surprised to see some of the current crop of (podcast) agitators go by the wayside. A tanked economy due to a pandemic means less discretionary income, and less podcast donations. Of course that probably means less donations to LD$-Inc. also.

As far as new agitators? It seems the rabbit-hole is never-ending. There will probably always be new issues stuck in folks' craw. What will it look like? I have no idea.

As has been mentioned, unless Oaks tones his rhetoric down quite a bit when he becomes CEO, there will be PLENTY of bigotry and hate to agitate folks.


2bizE wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:14 pm
What is anti-Mormon now?
Reality.

Edit: Let's add Logic and Reason to Reality.


.
Last edited by wtfluff on Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Journey
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Journey » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:22 pm

Apathy for sure. I don’t think the newer generations will fight, they’ll just walk away. Especially since the issues are becoming more and more well known so no reason to “shout from the rooftops “ as the ones that are staying won’t care to hear, either because they’re staying for social reasons or staying for precisely those doctrines.
Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:46 pm
Only one of my three children is still active. He went on a mission, married in the temple, and is going to BYUI. Even so, he often tells me that he is dismayed with the thought processes of a lot of members and with their prejudices and lack of basic humanity towards minority groups.

The other two are completely inactive, but the church just doesn't interest them. They have no anger or lingering issues -- well, actually my daughter has some bitterness over the modesty standards we enforced on her when she was in YW, but other than that she has moved on and it's just not applicable to her life. I tend to agree with Hagoth: you have to be carefully taught to fear and despise those who are different and the church mostly isn't teaching this generation very effectively.

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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Reuben » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:47 pm

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:46 pm
I tend to agree with Hagoth: you have to be carefully taught to fear and despise those who are different and the church mostly isn't teaching this generation very effectively.
The fear and disgust taught in the church requires ignorance and isolation to take root and stay strong. Our kids are getting a ridiculous amount of exposure, though. Example: my 13-year-old daughter's best online friend is trans. I can't imagine having a trans friend when I was her age. In Bountiful, Utah, they were all deeply in the closet.

Our kids must experience a great deal of dissonance when, at church, they're told things that are the exact opposite of their experience.

The only way for the church to not bleed out over LGBT issues in particular is to change its doctrine and discourse.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by jfro18 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:07 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:33 pm
Then Oaks will become the Prophet we all thought Elder Packer would have been had he lived long enough to ascend to the throne.

Oaks will be the hardliner who pushes the progressives out.

The next 10 years will be fun to watch from the outside but intolerable for those on the inside trying to make it work.
I hope so much that this is right, and if this it true I hope Oaks lives to be 150 years old.

As for the future of anti-Mormonism I really have no idea. I think it will be a lot more of the same, but it will get better and more bulletproof. That still requires someone to have an open mind to look, but I think you can see a lot of amazing venues of anti-Mormonism that are just so good at laying it out in easily digestible forms:

1. Brother Jake videos
2. Missed in Sunday memes
3. CES Letter (obviously much more well known)
4. So many good podcasts out there right now - Sunstone history ones are amazing, Infants on Thrones, mormon stories, etc.

I think the church is working so hard to seem "cool and hip" to inoculate members (look at those ridiculous "Now you know" videos they've been putting out), but I think it's really hard to make these things seem OK when the evidence is simply not on your side.

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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:23 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:19 pm
I guess they could lower tithing...
wtfluff wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:06 pm
A tanked economy due to a pandemic means less discretionary income, and less podcast donations. Of course that probably means less donations to LD$-Inc. also.
But what do you want to bet tithing will become the central theme of several conferences and Ensigns in the near future? With a heavy emphasis on reminding members that it's a commandment, a worthiness requirement, and eternal fire insurance.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by deacon blues » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:09 am

wtfluff wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:06 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:12 pm
What does everyone think the future of anti-Mormonism looks like?

...

So what is next? More individual’s stepping up to agitate for change? What issues would they agitate for to change?
I personally wouldn't be surprised to see some of the current crop of (podcast) agitators go by the wayside. A tanked economy due to a pandemic means less discretionary income, and less podcast donations. Of course that probably means less donations to LD$-Inc. also.

As far as new agitators? It seems the rabbit-hole is never-ending. There will probably always be new issues stuck in folks' craw. What will it look like? I have no idea.

As has been mentioned, unless Oaks tones his rhetoric down quite a bit when he becomes CEO, there will be PLENTY of bigotry and hate to agitate folks.


2bizE wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:14 pm
What is anti-Mormon now?
Reality.

Edit: Let's add Logic and Reason to Reality.


.
These thoughts have merit. Reality, logic, and reason could bump very hard against some of President Oaks recent ideals: don't criticize leaders, LGBT issues, etc. :o :? :roll:
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by nibbler » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:45 pm

What does the future of anti-Mormonism look like? Holding a microphone up to a DHO led first presidency. :P

Not to go off topic, but now you guys have got me wondering who would be in a DHO presidency.
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:53 pm

nibbler wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:45 pm
Not to go off topic, but now you guys have got me wondering who would be in a DHO presidency.
Great question.

Cook for sure. Maybe Bednar? Rasband could be a whipping boy?

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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:25 pm

I would think the future of anti-mormonism can be summed up with two words: Apathy and Accountability. Both are things that LDSInc is freaked out over.

Apathy: People just not caring for religion and Mormonism. They have moved on with their lives and no longer need a bunch of old white men in a Utah telling them what to and living off their money.

Accountability: People demanding They are held to the same standard of the rest of the world and holding their feet to the fire when they fall short. This could easily mean legal challanges. There are several major lawsuits pending. This could easily grow over the next decade or two like it did the the Roman Catholic church and the Boy Scouts of America.
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:44 pm

nibbler wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:45 pm
Not to go off topic, but now you guys have got me wondering who would be in a DHO presidency.
Are there any other lawyers in the Q15? Maybe Rudy Giuliani and Michael Cohen will convert.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:56 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:33 pm
Then Oaks will become the Prophet we all thought Elder Packer would have been had he lived long enough to ascend to the throne.

Oaks will be the hardliner who pushes the progressives out.

The next 10 years will be fun to watch from the outside but intolerable for those on the inside trying to make it work.
I hope so much that this is right, and if this it true I hope Oaks lives to be 150 years old.

As for the future of anti-Mormonism I really have no idea. I think it will be a lot more of the same, but it will get better and more bulletproof. That still requires someone to have an open mind to look, but I think you can see a lot of amazing venues of anti-Mormonism that are just so good at laying it out in easily digestible forms:

1. Brother Jake videos
2. Missed in Sunday memes
3. CES Letter (obviously much more well known)
4. So many good podcasts out there right now - Sunstone history ones are amazing, Infants on Thrones, mormon stories, etc.

I think the church is working so hard to seem "cool and hip" to inoculate members (look at those ridiculous "Now you know" videos they've been putting out), but I think it's really hard to make these things seem OK when the evidence is simply not on your side.
What You Missed in Sunday School Memes are outstanding. I especially love the Nelson/Hinckley contradicting quotes. So well done.

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Not Buying It
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:53 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:25 pm
I would think the future of anti-mormonism can be summed up with two words: Apathy and Accountability. Both are things that LDSInc is freaked out over.

Apathy: People just not caring for religion and Mormonism. They have moved on with their lives and no longer need a bunch of old white men in a Utah telling them what to and living off their money.

Accountability: People demanding They are held to the same standard of the rest of the world and holding their feet to the fire when they fall short. This could easily mean legal challanges. There are several major lawsuits pending. This could easily grow over the next decade or two like it did the the Roman Catholic church and the Boy Scouts of America.
I agree with apathy. My grown children aren't nearly as outraged as I am about the lies they were taught growing up. I could be wrong, but it seems their generation seems more happy to just walk away than make a big fuss about it. The Church will suffer more from the members who quietly drop out than the John Dehlins who try and make themselves celebrities over it (parenthetically, I think Kate Kelly illustrates the dangers of supporting "anti-Mormons" who rise to prominence, and I can't for the life of me figure out why people leave a religion based on cult worship only to become cult worshippers of prominent critics of the Church). Anyway, there may be fewer high-profile anti-mormons, but a lot more quiet ones.

I don't know about accountability though. I think the Church will likely do what they always do - make a show of changing without changing anything. Put up window dressing and rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. They will never, ever allow themselves to be held accountable for anything.

Three cheers to the Tanners though - they were true pioneers, prominent Church critics when it was a lot harder and a lot lonelier. Much of what we know, we know because of them.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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