What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

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blazerb
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by blazerb » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:22 am

We can see the switch in the type of apologetic that the church encourages. 30 years ago, it was a FARMS/FAIR-style, take-no-prisoners approach. That was all there was, at least all I was aware of. It reflected an insistence that we have the Truth. Anti-Mormons were the opposite, asserting that the church did not have Truth.

Now we see a switch to the pastoral-style of apologetic that accepts that legitimate questions exist but minimizes their importance. It seems to downplay the importance of Truth and plays up the importance of community and engagement. I think the anti-Mormons of today, if that is how they can be described, are going to question the value of the community that the church provides. They will ask, if all we need is community, why do we have a prophet that we are required to obey? This feeds into the apathy and accountability problem identified by Just This Guy. I don't think it's clear what value the church is supposed to provide.

In short, in my lifetime I have seen anti-Mormonism switch from evangelical Christian criticism to a more general question of value.

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2bizE
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by 2bizE » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:44 am

blazerb wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:22 am
In short, in my lifetime I have seen anti-Mormonism switch from evangelical Christian criticism to a more general question of value.
These are my thoughts as well...I can picture Bednar driving around with a bumper sticker on his car saying “Make Religion Relevant Again”.
~2bizE

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Hagoth
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:07 pm

I already see a form of apologetics emerging that tries to turn every "anti-mormon" comment into a strawman argument.

Criticism: Joseph Smith could not read and translate Egyptian.
Response: That's a strawman argument. We never said Joseph could translate Egyptian. We said he could "translate" Egyptian. Two different things.

Criticism: Nothing about the Book of Mormon accords with Ancient America. Much of it accords with 19th Century upstate New York.
Resonse: That's a strawman. God inspired Joseph with specific ideas but allowed him to dictate it in his own idiom.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by jfro18 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:05 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:07 pm
I already see a form of apologetics emerging that tries to turn every "anti-mormon" comment into a strawman argument.
That's the way Tad Callister's writings are - he picks these outdated criticisms and then tears them down. I wrote about it a while back because it was so disingenuous - he wrote as if the Spaulding theory was still used by critics when every critic I've listened to dismisses that immediately.

But I think the church is clearly handing apologists as much rope as they need these days, because the old days of attacking the messenger just won't work, but attacking the problems head on isn't tenable either. You can't attack the Tanners now because you can see most of their criticisms are backed up by documents.

And the other tactic they love is to divide and conquer. You can come up with apologetics for every issue, but usually in doing so it opens up issues elsewhere. It's why the CES Letter is so effective - you see the patterns when you look at everything together.

But if you read the FAIR response (or other responses) they take everything on separately. In doing so they can abandon defenses made just one issue earlier and then launch back into yet another one depending on the need, even though in doing so they are undermining apologetics made on other issues just minutes earlier.

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Corsair
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Corsair » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:42 pm

My guess is that the LDS church will need to demonstrate some compelling reasons to be Mormon here in mortality. Exaltation and eternal life are simply too distant when you are dealing with mortal challenges. The church has really ticked off the rising generation with its stand against LGBT people. This is a really difficult divide to bridge since LBGT Mormons will never truly be full members of the church. Being single is its own mark of passive aggressive failure already. Marrying into a heteronormative marriage is no longer recommended and we functionally know the overwhelming chance for divorce and emotional turmoil.

I don't know this prophet-led church moves forward with this. As others have noted, indifference is easy to summon and it's heavily resistant to the LDS message. My children certainly are on that road for the most part due to LGBT issues and other common issues.

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Just This Guy
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Just This Guy » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:48 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:53 am
I don't know about accountability though. I think the Church will likely do what they always do - make a show of changing without changing anything. Put up window dressing and rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. They will never, ever allow themselves to be held accountable for anything.

I would say that the church will do what they have always done: Be dragged kicking and screaming to the accountability table. However, the public demand for it has been slowly, but steadily growing for it over the years. I don't see that momentum changing. Public and goverment calls for accountability will grow and the church's resistance will grow with it. This back and forth will go on for a LONG time.

I could see amount of leaks to lead to information security and personal security clearances evolving to the point when it rivals the CIA.

The public in general has grown to be warry of LDSInc. This only grow over time.
Last edited by Just This Guy on Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hagoth
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:28 pm

Here's an idea for an anti-Mormon protest movement. A bunch of people just start wearing temple clothes in public. I'm not recommending it, I'm just saying that it is perfectly within your constitutional rights and it would cause quite a stir if you're into that kind of shrill statement making. They could have a message (e.g. Protect the Children, Priesthood 4 Women, LGBTQ Lives Matter, Joseph Lied, Where's MY 14-year Old Bride? Mild Barley Drinks, *NewNameNoah...) sewn into the apron.

*he's the only person I can think of who would actually do this, and then show up outside the window at the KUTV studio during the 10 o'clock news.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:47 am

Hagoth wrote:Here's an idea for an anti-Mormon protest movement. A bunch of people just start wearing temple clothes in public. I'm not recommending it, I'm just saying that it is perfectly within your constitutional rights and it would cause quite a stir if you're into that kind of shrill statement making. They could have a message (e.g. Protect the Children, Priesthood 4 Women, LGBTQ Lives Matter, Joseph Lied, Where's MY 14-year Old Bride? Mild Barley Drinks, *NewNameNoah...) sewn into the apron.

*he's the only person I can think of who would actually do this, and then show up outside the window at the KUTV studio during the 10 o'clock news.
Here we go:

<<deleted image for Mackman>>
Last edited by FiveFingerMnemonic on Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mackman
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Mackman » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:38 pm

As much as I dont like the church this picture is in poor taste and disrespectful!!!!!

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Red Ryder
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:43 pm

Mackman wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:38 pm
As much as I dont like the church this picture is in poor taste and disrespectful!!!!!
No kidding. We can’t see if he’s wearing the slippers correctly! :lol:
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Mackman » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:48 pm

Well I see this site has changed from people questioning to total hatred of the church and those who are still connected !!!! So I bid you all farewell and may you find peace in the future. Mackman

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Red Ryder
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:05 pm

Mackman wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:48 pm
Well I see this site has changed from people questioning to total hatred of the church and those who are still connected !!!! So I bid you all farewell and may you find peace in the future. Mackman
Really Mack? Total hatred of the church and those still connected? Like my wife, and family? If we can’t laugh at things then life gets unbearable.

However, I see your point and was merely tongue in cheek. Perhaps we can ask Five to politely edit his picture so that we can be respectful on the surface.

Hagoth, what do you think? Can we let a few sacred cows graze in the pasture?
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:13 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mackman wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:48 pm
Well I see this site has changed from people questioning to total hatred of the church and those who are still connected !!!! So I bid you all farewell and may you find peace in the future. Mackman
Really Mack? Total hatred of the church and those still connected? Like my wife, and family? If we can’t laugh at things then life gets unbearable.

However, I see your point and was merely tongue in cheek. Perhaps we can ask Five to politely edit his picture so that we can be respectful on the surface.

Hagoth, what do you think? Can we let a few sacred cows graze in the pasture?
T'was me, and I deleted the image, as hilarious as it was. And for the record, I don't have bitterness towards my culture and heritage, just enough apathy to not care if obi-wan green apron wields his saber in that silly garb. ImageImage

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Red Ryder
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:20 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:13 pm
T'was me, and I deleted the image, as hilarious as it was. And for the record, I don't have bitterness towards my culture and heritage, just enough apathy to not care if obi-wan green apron wields his saber in that silly garb. ImageImage
Ha! Sorry for the mix up and thanks for the respect by deletion. A little apathy goes a long way.

And speaking of heritage and culture, I had this surreal experience last night. I woke up and couldn’t fall back asleep for a few hours and my mind began to reminisce about my elderly grandparents. I wondered how they had lived through uncertain times in their life and I came to the conclusion that they were supported by their friends and family and community. The community aspect was really the church and their ward since they lived in Idaho and Utah. But I felt a similar bout of nostalgia having realized that the church community has given me many wonderful experiences that I would hate to not have had.

You can leave mentally and physically but Mormonism is in our DNA. I think I’m actually thankful for that in some weird way. Or at least when I’m up in the night.

How about you Mack? What part of this do you hold onto? Perhaps better to start a new thread?
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

Mackman
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Mackman » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:21 pm

Sorry guys I got a little worked up I guess Mormonism is in our DNA !!!!!

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Angel
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by Angel » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:21 pm

I'm late to the thread, but good thread!

BLM has re-opened discussions on racism within the church, at least within my newsfeed. Mama-Dragons/LGBTQ, feminists - more independent working single moms realizing priesthood isn't a protection, isn't a support.

I think moving fwd, people crave healthy community. Ex-mo gatherings are important. Virtual conferences, virtual gatherings, connecting local ex-mo's to one another, forming little local support groups.

All the resources and research from the past are relevant and still available today. Strengthening ex-mo communities might be a need to fill?
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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DPRoberts
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Re: What’s the future of anti-Mormonism look like?

Post by DPRoberts » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:11 pm

Thanks, Angel, for bumping the thread. You brought up a point that I think is huge, and quite possibly the area where tCOjColDS is becoming most vulnerable, and that is in the area of creating strong community. While they still have the money to provide the buildings where people can meet, they seem to be doing a poorer and poorer job of building community. The church seems to have bought into its own form of politics of division, and the divisive rhetoric of some senior leaders is driving a wedge that is splitting apart LDS communities.

In this instance I am defining anti-Mormonism as competition for the hearts, minds, and time commitments of community-minded people. There are definitely people out there who are inclined to try to build community without the burden of divisive dogma. I have participated in a couple of those here in Salt Lake, and while these groups are somewhat struggling to get off the ground, they have potential. But i would be less than honest if i did not acknowledge that the groups do not appear anywhere near to challenging the big god-based groups anytime soon. Then again, everything starts somewhere and Salt Lake City has a large community of people who have experienced the LDS community when it worked, and might yearn to establish something similar without the religious baggage.

One of these groups with a larger multinational parent, Oasis SLC, had a speaker about a month or two back by the name of Jared Anderson. An ex-mo, he has given some thought to why it is secular groups cannot seem to get off the ground. He points out that humanism has much better ideas for accomplishing all the things religions claim to promote. So why do they not compete well? The movement he is trying to build, which he calls Religious Humanism https://religioushumanism.org/ is based on the idea that while there is no supernatural power behind religion, there is a very human technology in play here that can be used to build other movement. Including secular ones. Who knows whether or not he'll ever get off the ground with this. But hopefully somebody with a similar bent eventually will.

Mr Anderson uses the term "religion better than true" to express the idea that religious "truth" is not enough, and that religion first has to be demonstrably good. Oasis stresses "community beyond belief" and the Sunday Assembly embraces strong secular values that include being "radically inclusive". There is a lot of potential out there to build something better than what tCOjCOLDS has to offer. It has a long way to go, but we're talking about the future here, right?
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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