God vs Evolution vs middle land

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2bizE
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God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by 2bizE » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:40 pm

My beliefs have changed over the years of my faith crisis. I no longer believe in the Mormon God. I can’t. I have struggled to define what I believe in now. The book “Sapiens” has been the most therapeutic and helpful book I have read. It has helped me to connect with and to understand my past. It doesn’t tear down religion but rather points to the usefulness of community myths. Yet, evolution doesn’t explain everything. It does help for this planet, but not necessarily for the Universe. There is some space for me to still believe in some supreme being as the universe is so vast and unexplained.
Where do your beliefs fit in this dynamic? Do you find space for a supreme being, or evolution only or belief in another earthly God?
~2bizE

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Ghost
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by Ghost » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:49 pm

I like something Richard Dawkins once said, that it's conceivable that there are beings in the universe that are sufficiently evolved that we'd consider them gods. I believe he said that this is the only type of god he would consider remotely likely to exist.

When I read this, years ago, I wasn't yet seriously questioning things, and I liked how this idea sounded somewhat compatible with Mormon theology. I still think it's an interesting idea. With the right knowledge and technology, maybe such a being could create (or at least seed life on) a world.

Here's another idea from Richard Dawkins that I also like:
Richard Dawkins wrote:Suppose life's origin on a planet took place through a hugely improbable stroke of luck, so improbable that it happens on only one in a billion planets. The National Science Foundation would laugh at any chemist whose proposed research had only a one in a hundred chance of succeeding, let alone one in a billion. Yet, given that there are at least a billion billion planets in the universe, even such absurdly low odds as these will yield life on a billion planets. And — this is where the famous anthropic principle comes in — Earth has to be one of them, because here we are.

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Hagoth
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:52 am

I try to remain open to the concept of something greater than us that could be labelled 'God,' but not at all in the sense that the Bible talks about God. Yahweh is essentially the same as Baal, Marduk, Ashur, Enlil, and countless others. He just happened to be the deity of choice for the people who wrote the book. For me, a real God would have to be more like a Spinoza/Einstein underlying pattern of natural laws, or the pantheist whole-is-greater-than-the-sum-of-the-parts, or the Tao, or the Hindu Brahman. Philosopher Bernardo Kastrup talks about the idea that the underlying nature of the universe is consciousness, and wherever there is stuff it is a component of that consciousness.

I am willing to muster enough faith to believe that there really is something there and that we can catch glimpses of it. I believe that we do catch those glimpses by way of certain spiritual experiences, exposure to nature, psychedelics, meditation, etc. I believe I have caught glimpses through those means. But it's about as far from a bearded man on a throne as you can imagine. But how can such a God love and care about you? Because you are part of that God with the capacity to love and care about yourself and others; Sagan's eyes of the universe observing itself.

Even if God is nothing more than a cultural construct or an evolutionary propensity to assign agency to the forces of nature, it is still real in the sense that it is a concept that looms large in the reasons people do many of the things they do. The most ardent atheist still has to deal with God n a daily basis because he/she shares brain evolution and a god-affected culture with literal believers. God, as a powerful cultural concept is real, even if not real as a literal entity.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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glass shelf
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by glass shelf » Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:24 pm

I'm fine with apathy towards all of this. I have no idea how the universe started. We have good evidence for how evolution has shaped our world. I see nothing that leads me to believe in any recognizable deity right now. Is there some kind of "creator" out there? Maybe. If so, they haven't made a great attempt to make themselves known. I don't think there's an afterlife, and that thought doesn't bother me. If I die and find out I'm wrong, I'll see what happens next.

I see people regularly who find comfort in their beliefs as they deal with end of life issues, and it's not my place to worry about what other people believe in. Those beliefs don't bring me comfort, and I'm find with that.

So, agnostic (apatheist leaning) atheist.

I think no one knows, and we have no good way of finding out the answer given the tools we have, so you can be free to believe whatever you want as long as you don't use those beliefs to harm other people.

dogbite
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by dogbite » Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:50 pm

All evolution is is the best explanation of the available evidence.

I accept it as such.

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moksha
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by moksha » Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:24 am

I like to think of evolution as a prime tool in God's utility belt. Good on science for expanding the boundaries of religion.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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1smartdodog
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by 1smartdodog » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:55 am

I wish there was a benevolent god running the show. I hope there is, but most evidence leads me to believe otherwise. Yet I still hope for something beyond this existence.


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Hagoth
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:11 am

glass shelf wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:24 pm
I think no one knows
And this is probably the most important thing to know about God (or whatever). A personal experience is just that. Anyone who tells you what God wants YOU to do should be ignored, because it always turns out that God wants you to part with your money.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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2bizE
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by 2bizE » Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:05 pm

moksha wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:24 am
I like to think of evolution as a prime tool in God's utility belt. Good on science for expanding the boundaries of religion.
Never thought of this, but a grand creator who implemented evolution...that’s a good one.
~2bizE

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glass shelf
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by glass shelf » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:48 pm

2bizE wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:05 pm
moksha wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:24 am
I like to think of evolution as a prime tool in God's utility belt. Good on science for expanding the boundaries of religion.
Never thought of this, but a grand creator who implemented evolution...that’s a good one.
Ironically, this is what I believed when I was Mormon. God works by natural laws, you know? I'm pretty sure I picked that up with my science classes at BYU although I know I thought evolution was possible even before that.

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moksha
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by moksha » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:34 am

glass shelf wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:48 pm
Ironically, this is what I believed when I was Mormon. God works by natural laws, you know?
This seems to be a good position for those who want to believe, yet feel uncomfortable with a fundamentalist position on creation.

I imagine there is some tension between those of the 21st Century sciences at BYU and those of the Dark Ages Religion Department. Fortunately, the science people can use the enlightenment to ward off any spells cast by the old time religionists.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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RubinHighlander
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:50 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:52 am
I am willing to muster enough faith to believe that there really is something there and that we can catch glimpses of it. I believe that we do catch those glimpses by way of certain spiritual experiences, exposure to nature, psychedelics, meditation, etc. I believe I have caught glimpses through those means. But it's about as far from a bearded man on a throne as you can imagine. But how can such a God love and care about you? Because you are part of that God with the capacity to love and care about yourself and others; Sagan's eyes of the universe observing itself.

Even if God is nothing more than a cultural construct or an evolutionary propensity to assign agency to the forces of nature, it is still real in the sense that it is a concept that looms large in the reasons people do many of the things they do. The most ardent atheist still has to deal with God n a daily basis because he/she shares brain evolution and a god-affected culture with literal believers. God, as a powerful cultural concept is real, even if not real as a literal entity.
I knew I would not come up with anything better than this master tapir rider!

I will say there have been moments of clarity this past couple of years, when I really connected with existence. It has taken a couple of heavy psychedelic trips. I lost my ego for a time and it helped make so many new connections; now it seems I can more easily tap into experiencing a true existence of just particles and really feel part of everything...and nothing. It all seemed so simple at times: The mathematics, the conditions of the big expansion and proton decay, putting into play our linear timeline of our exponentially expanding universe. Everything is destined to reach entropy some time in the trillions upon trillions of years in the future, when the last black hole dissipates and no particle will interact with any other. We are everything and nothing. As sapiens, we are the actual joke of the cosmos, our little tribalistic egos, like little vortexes, spinning all these billions of different experiences from the funny perspective that we are what matters most in this universe.

I believe we are just a few billions of the trillions of ways the Cosmos is expressing and experiencing itself in as many ways as it can over it's own lifespan. We are just this tiny little speck of whoville, while massive chaos of exploding stars, nebula, supermassive black holes, dark matter, cosmic energy, all that out there and mostly, from what we can see, empty space or matter we cannot detect or see. So in our little tiny corner, evolution, entropy, and rock and roll, then sometime in the distant future our star dies. We either make it off the planet or we don't but I wonder if the cosmos even cares? I mean, it seems, if it is even aware, it's started over a few times on this little orb. Sever mass extinctions of life, 99.9% of all living things of the past have died off. Then life here fires back up again, finally getting to us, then our time will come someday, one way or another and then what? If anyone on this planet tells you they have it figured out...I call absolute bullshit!

Just when I think I have it figured out, a thought will come into my mind: Okay then, explain Beck, Tame Impala, Pink Floyd, Jimi Hendrix and many other artists that have woven a fifth layer or element into their music that you can only tap into with certain herbal supplements. And I'm back to square one. But I can guarantee you this, god or any of the gods of the religions that sapiens invented, are just the projections of our egos, our fears, our desire for power, our tribalism, our need to know everything and fill in the gaps. I'm still leaning toward a simulation of sorts, but it does not lessen the amazing thing that it is and it does not answer the question why. Now, sometimes at the end of a really good day, I look at all the trees, rocks, grass, dog, stars, frosted flakes, strawberries, music, tub, breeze, etc., and I applaud it all and say "Well done everyone, excellent!" Because I know I'm just part of it, the funniest part actually. You might be a player but you are also being played in the grand old opera of our reality.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by annotatedbom » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:00 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:11 am
glass shelf wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:24 pm
I think no one knows
And this is probably the most important thing to know about God (or whatever). A personal experience is just that. Anyone who tells you what God wants YOU to do should be ignored, because it always turns out that God wants you to part with your money.
I’m sorry Hagoth, but I must disagree with you and defend God. Sometimes, just sometimes, God only wants you to have sex with the person who knows God’s will o_O /s

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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by annotatedbom » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:01 pm

2bizE wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:40 pm
Do you find space for a supreme being, or evolution only or belief in another earthly God?
I have no belief left in a supreme being (except maybe my wife). I do have a faith though. I trust that If there is a God worthy of worship, that they’ll have no concern that I was not able to believe in an extremely extraordinary claim about their existence without evidence. Of course, by the Mormon definition of faith, Mormons could say that’s not faith from their perspective since faith is belief in things that are true, and they think it’s not true that God would not care.

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Hagoth
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:59 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:50 am
We are just this tiny little speck of whoville,
Yopp!

I figure if there is a personal God and he wants me to know about him he has the ability to tell me directly, rather than just shrug me off to believe one of the endless parade of guys who claim to speak on his behalf, and trust that I will have access to the right guy.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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deacon blues
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by deacon blues » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:13 am

If the universe is infinite then anything and everything is possible sometime somewhere
God is Love. God is Truth

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Oliver
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by Oliver » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:50 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:11 am
glass shelf wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:24 pm
I think no one knows
And this is probably the most important thing to know about God (or whatever). A personal experience is just that. Anyone who tells you what God wants YOU to do should be ignored, because it always turns out that God wants you to part with your money.
Or, as is the case of early church history i.e. polygamy, you're wife.
So what do you do, with good old boys like me?

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Hagoth
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:02 pm

Oliver wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:50 am
Or, as is the case of early church history i.e. polygamy, you're wife.
I wonder how much tithing exemption you get for handing over your wife?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by moksha » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:28 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:02 pm
I wonder how much tithing exemption you get for handing over your wife?
Handing over his daughter to Joseph Smith earned Heber C. Kimball and all his descendants a free trip to the Celestial Kingdom. The only downside to this is that Helen Marr Kimball had to miss her Jr. High School dances.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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RubinHighlander
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Re: God vs Evolution vs middle land

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:45 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:13 am
If the universe is infinite then anything and everything is possible sometime somewhere
Infinite in that we can never reach the expanding edge of it, but it has a finite life. As far as we can tell, there's not enough mass in the universe to reverse entropy. I sometimes think the universe is going through a mid-life crises of sorts. Maybe it's at the height of it's golden age, even though it's still quite young in terms of the time scale. This continual expansion of everything, eventually reaching an era in which all stars are dead, no new formation and the remaining black holes take trillions of years to dissipate.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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