Suicide

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Hagoth
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Suicide

Post by Hagoth » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:04 am

Many of you probably got the mailer from the church about suicide. I have to say I was relieved relieved by the message. In Elder Renlund's video he dispelled the myth that suicide is a sin as "totally false" and observed that people who end their own lives "have lived heroic lives and that suicide will not be a defining characteristic of their eternities." He says, "what we need to do as a church is to reach out with love and caring to those with suicidal thoughts."

Of course, the upshot of the whole thing is that being in tune with the church's teachings is the ultimate solution to the problem. They will never confront the horrifically sad reality that the church's expectations and condemnations have been the primary driver of far too many young lives ending in suicide.

Still, a good and necessary step, in my opinion. I only skimmed most of it, so I hope the overall message is what it appears to be on the surface.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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blazerb
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Re: Suicide

Post by blazerb » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:25 pm

There is an old sectarian notion that suicide is a sin.
I am glad he labeled this false. It would help if he acknowledged that this can be found in old church materials and is still false.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Suicide

Post by Mormorrisey » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:20 am

blazerb wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:25 pm
There is an old sectarian notion that suicide is a sin.
I am glad he labeled this false. It would help if he acknowledged that this can be found in old church materials and is still false.
Absolutely agree. But it will be a cold day in hell before that happens. Throwing older prophets under the bus is just not their style.

But I'm with both of you - I'm as guilty as anybody for piling on, but this is something good that has been said, and hopefully the idea will catch on, and maybe some professional help will be offered to those suffering from both the loss of suicide, or for people considering it. Kudos to Renlund for making it a "non-sin" issue, even if his solution, as you noted, Hagoth, is rather tired and worn.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Jeffret
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Re: Suicide

Post by Jeffret » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:41 am

My elderly father-in-law passed away six months ago. From suicide. He was having lots of health issues and trying everything he could to alleviate the torment, until he found the thing that worked. All of the family was very sad to see him go but accepting of his choice. We miss him and wish we could still share things with him.

One of the first things I did was to look up the Church's current stance on suicide. Father-in-law and most of the rest of the family are very devout Mormons. I read that the current policy is that a person shouldn't commit suicide, but if someone does, we shouldn't judge and only god can render judgement. The funeral was held in a Mormon church and the burial in a small Utah town. No one said anything negative or condemning -- we all just celebrated his long life and the times we had shared with him. We didn't broadcast his cause of death, because we just didn't see any reason for that. But, all the family, Mormon neighbors, and local Mormon neighbors all know.

At the same time, I looked up the Catholic policy on suicide. It is very harsh and condemning. At least that's one thing where Mormon policy is an improvement.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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glass shelf
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Re: Suicide

Post by glass shelf » Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:26 pm

I'm glad they've walked back on the hardline that they taught me as a kid. It's definitely not healthy to add that type of thought onto the already complex situations involving suicide and grief.

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Suicide

Post by MalcolmVillager » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:44 pm

blazerb wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:25 pm
There is an old sectarian notion that suicide is a sin.
I am glad he labeled this false. It would help if he acknowledged that this can be found in old church materials and is still false.
So many doctrines of the religions have preached that sin is doing that thing that parents or community leaders would rather not have to deal with or acknowledge. Fear mongering, corporal punishment, and shunning were the few tools ancient religions.

Those don't work anymore. And so they change. Kudos to the COJCOLDS for doing that. Shame on them for gaslighting that the doctrines of past leaders were merely "old sectarian notions".

Classic move by the the organization that cannot admit fault, repent, or give/seek apologies.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Suicide

Post by Red Ryder » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:54 pm

Sometimes the church does something right.

Still a long way to go to dismantle and remove the guilt machine.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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A New Name
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Re: Suicide

Post by A New Name » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:15 pm

recent blog post https://thehotflashfiles.com/when-a-chi ... nca3FFJJCw by my sister on her daughter's depression and suicide attempt.

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blazerb
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Re: Suicide

Post by blazerb » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:48 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:20 am
blazerb wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:25 pm
There is an old sectarian notion that suicide is a sin.
I am glad he labeled this false. It would help if he acknowledged that this can be found in old church materials and is still false.
Absolutely agree. But it will be a cold day in hell before that happens. Throwing older prophets under the bus is just not their style.

But I'm with both of you - I'm as guilty as anybody for piling on, but this is something good that has been said, and hopefully the idea will catch on, and maybe some professional help will be offered to those suffering from both the loss of suicide, or for people considering it. Kudos to Renlund for making it a "non-sin" issue, even if his solution, as you noted, Hagoth, is rather tired and worn.
I think I wish that I could just be happy that he got this far. What bugs me is how he worded this. It is as if he were saying, "Oh those silly sectarians! Where do they get this stuff?" Who are these sectarians, anyway?

Again, you're right. I should not pile on. I hope that the church's efforts to reduce the rate of suicide are successful. It's a worthwhile effort.

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deacon blues
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Re: Suicide

Post by deacon blues » Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:32 pm

:shock: :cry: Every LDS topical guide in the scriptures I've ever seen had the entry, "Suicide: see murder." McConkie's Mormon Doctrine, at least the 1959 version said the same thing. It's been an issue with me ever since my 1987 suicide attempt. I learned not to look to the Topical Guide for comfort.
God is Love. God is Truth

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deacon blues
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Re: Suicide

Post by deacon blues » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:58 pm

I should note that Bruce McConkie's article on Suicide in the 1966 "Mormon Doctrine" was amended greatly. The 1966 version begins: "SUICIDES: See accountability" and continues in a much softer tone to explain that that people may become "mentally clouded to the point that they are no longer accountable for their acts. Such are not to be condemned for taking their own lives. It should also be remembered that judgement is the Lord's; he knows that thoughts, intents, and abilities of men; and he in his infinite wisdom will make all things right in due course." (Mormon Doctrine,1966)
This is very different from the tone of the 1958 version which stated, "That the great probability is that nearly all self-murderers -- though they may be depressed and mentally ill -- do in fact know right from wrong, the same as most killers do."
Having lived with depression I can state that depression can indeed cloud one's judgement to the point that they do not have free will, as it is commonly understood.
God is Love. God is Truth

hmb
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Re: Suicide

Post by hmb » Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:02 am

I've attended two LDS conducted funerals, each due to suicide. Both were handled very respectfully and without judgement. One was 2012, the other was during the 80's. I remember being relieved that they didn't say anything to add hurt to the families. I wish they could extend that type of view on those who have a life style that doesn't "agree" with the church, or to those that leave, for whatever reason. Perhaps there would be less of a need to hold these particular funerals if church misfits could live without the overwhelming guilt of failure.

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redjay
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Re: Suicide

Post by redjay » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:19 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:41 am
My elderly father-in-law passed away six months ago. From suicide. He was having lots of health issues and trying everything he could to alleviate the torment, until he found the thing that worked. All of the family was very sad to see him go but accepting of his choice. We miss him and wish we could still share things with him.

One of the first things I did was to look up the Church's current stance on suicide. Father-in-law and most of the rest of the family are very devout Mormons. I read that the current policy is that a person shouldn't commit suicide, but if someone does, we shouldn't judge and only god can render judgement. The funeral was held in a Mormon church and the burial in a small Utah town. No one said anything negative or condemning -- we all just celebrated his long life and the times we had shared with him. We didn't broadcast his cause of death, because we just didn't see any reason for that. But, all the family, Mormon neighbors, and local Mormon neighbors all know.

At the same time, I looked up the Catholic policy on suicide. It is very harsh and condemning. At least that's one thing where Mormon policy is an improvement.
I'm sorry to hear that. I'm glad the service was positive.
At the halfway home. I'm a full-grown man. But I'm not afraid to cry.

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Jeffret
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Re: Suicide

Post by Jeffret » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:32 am

redjay wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:19 pm
I'm sorry to hear that. I'm glad the service was positive.
Thanks!
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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moksha
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Re: Suicide

Post by moksha » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:15 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:58 pm
Bruce McConkie's... 1958 version which stated, "That the great probability is that nearly all self-murderers -- though they may be depressed and mentally ill -- do in fact know right from wrong, the same as most killers do."
McConkie probably can up with this deviltry while pontificating with Joseph Fielding Smith after a Sunday dinner.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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