Expect No Good Apologies

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Linked
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Expect No Good Apologies

Post by Linked » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:20 pm

I was listening to the "No Stupid Questions" podcast that dropped on 15 Nov 2020 and it talked about apologies. They outline 3 things that are important to an effective apology:

1 - Tell them what you feel (you need to feel and express remorse)
2 - Admit your mistake AND the negative impact it had
3 - Make the situation right at a cost to yourself

No wonder the church is not in the business of giving apologies. A perfect God (and his perfect church) don't make mistakes and so have no need to feel remorse. And they can't make the situation right.

They also discuss 3 psychological barriers to offering an apology:

1 - Low concern for the victim or relationship
2 - Perceived threat to the transgressor's self-image
3 - Perceived apology ineffectiveness

I think church members really do care about people, but they tend to think the best way to show you care is try to convince you to think the way they do. Once you are labelled as an apostate you become a danger though, so they have to balance defending themselves and their families from you and caring about you. #2 really hits home; a real apology from the church about institutional dishonesty could seriously hurt the church. And an apology wouldn't be effective in repairing the relationship between the church and many who are disaffected as anecdotally highlighted by the occasional question posed here about what it would take to get you back to church.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

Wonderment
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Re: Expect No Good Apologies

Post by Wonderment » Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:00 pm

Excellent analysis. If the brethren apologize, then they are admitting that they were wrong, and the church is never wrong.

They are never wrong, because they believe that they are the Lord's representatives on earth, and that they are acting on the Lord's will.

Because Heavenly Father is all-knowing and all-powerful, then the church is exactly the same.Anyone who disagrees with the church, therefore disagrees with the Lord. To disagree with the Lord is to be disobedient, in their minds.

This behavior is a form of psychological and spiritual abuse, but the brethren wield that very well. ( Other religious organizations do the same. They insist you either believe as they do, or you are going to hell. In evangelical fundamentalist churches, to be "saved" is to be saved from hell).

It is just a tremendous psychological mind scam. It's a highly abusive scam. But it affects millions of well-meaning people. -- Wndr.

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Culper Jr.
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Re: Expect No Good Apologies

Post by Culper Jr. » Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:07 am

Linked wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:20 pm
No wonder the church is not in the business of giving apologies. A perfect God (and his perfect church) don't make mistakes and so have no need to feel remorse. And they can't make the situation right.
Yup, there is absolutely ZERO upside to the church for apologizing for anything.

Unfortunately, DW has taken this practice to heart and refuses to apologize for anything in life ever. She has even quoted Oaks' "the church does not seek or give apologies" statement when we talked about it once. The result is a lot of unresolved hurt in our marriage that we just sort of move on from, but still kind of lingers.

So thank you church, for teaching my wife the true and living way to never apologize. I'll just add it to the list of things you've done to wreck my family relationships.

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Palerider
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Re: Expect No Good Apologies

Post by Palerider » Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:44 am

Culper Jr. wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:07 am

Unfortunately, DW has taken this practice to heart and refuses to apologize for anything in life ever. She has even quoted Oaks' "the church does not seek or give apologies" statement when we talked about it once.
Doesn't she realize that the church is a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of organization? They can't be expected to live up to the standards they teach!
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Linked
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Re: Expect No Good Apologies

Post by Linked » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:55 am

Culper Jr. wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:07 am
Linked wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:20 pm
No wonder the church is not in the business of giving apologies. A perfect God (and his perfect church) don't make mistakes and so have no need to feel remorse. And they can't make the situation right.
Yup, there is absolutely ZERO upside to the church for apologizing for anything.

Unfortunately, DW has taken this practice to heart and refuses to apologize for anything in life ever. She has even quoted Oaks' "the church does not seek or give apologies" statement when we talked about it once. The result is a lot of unresolved hurt in our marriage that we just sort of move on from, but still kind of lingers.

So thank you church, for teaching my wife the true and living way to never apologize. I'll just add it to the list of things you've done to wreck my family relationships.
That's messed up, I'm sorry your DW has done that. Does that mean that you can lie to here and hide things from her and tell her she should have known when she finds out? Man, using the church as a model of good behavior could go badly very quickly.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Corsair
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Re: Expect No Good Apologies

Post by Corsair » Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:31 pm

The hope for some kind of apology and emotional closure is an emotional scar that probably last the longest in a faith transition. The belief system and institution that caused the problem truly does not believe that you are owed anything for your change of spiritual loyalty. There will be no dramatic scene where any acknowledgement of wrongdoing will be presented. Giving up any expectations of that acknowledgement was an important step towards a healthy indifference.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Expect No Good Apologies

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:47 pm

Corsair wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:31 pm
Giving up any expectations of that acknowledgement was an important step towards a healthy indifference.
This is so true.

Once I quit caring about a lot of the hurt and betrayal I felt I suddenly became extremely indifferent. I still have my days where I Dream the church would implode and I get all my tithing back. But honestly there’s a shelf life to thinking about the church apologizing.

Never will happen.

And I don’t care (anymore)!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Linked
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Re: Expect No Good Apologies

Post by Linked » Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:28 pm

Corsair wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:31 pm
The hope for some kind of apology and emotional closure is an emotional scar that probably last the longest in a faith transition. The belief system and institution that caused the problem truly does not believe that you are owed anything for your change of spiritual loyalty. There will be no dramatic scene where any acknowledgement of wrongdoing will be presented. Giving up any expectations of that acknowledgement was an important step towards a healthy indifference.
Good points. I posted about this not because I was desiring an apology so much as the juxtaposition of a good apology and the behavior of the institutional church. Even if the institution clearly harmed someone by a reasonable standard they will not do the right thing and apologize.

Their refusal to apologize when an apology is clearly in order is a reason I find the institutional church objectionable.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

Reuben
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Re: Expect No Good Apologies

Post by Reuben » Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:50 pm

Linked wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:28 pm
Corsair wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:31 pm
The hope for some kind of apology and emotional closure is an emotional scar that probably last the longest in a faith transition. The belief system and institution that caused the problem truly does not believe that you are owed anything for your change of spiritual loyalty. There will be no dramatic scene where any acknowledgement of wrongdoing will be presented. Giving up any expectations of that acknowledgement was an important step towards a healthy indifference.
Good points. I posted about this not because I was desiring an apology so much as the juxtaposition of a good apology and the behavior of the institutional church. Even if the institution clearly harmed someone by a reasonable standard they will not do the right thing and apologize.

Their refusal to apologize when an apology is clearly in order is a reason I find the institutional church objectionable.
A good apology to anyone, for anything at all, is one of a few things that would let me start taking the church seriously as a moral authority.

In general, I would need it to be less collectively narcissistic.

Looks like I'm out for good, then.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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