Has your definition of right and wrong changed?

[Red Ryder]

Having gone done through the process of a faith awakening, I often find myself learning to come to terms with new ways of thinking. What I once thought to be moral or ethical, for the most part still are, but I find that I think through situations and circumstances with more thought.

As a member of the church, the answer was always definitive enough that I skipped over the thought process. Rather than thinking on my own, I only had to regurgitate the church answer which led to skipping the thought process which is where the real learning comes from. The church taught me right vs wrong. At least according to the framework teachings of the church.

Now I find myself struggling to define right vs wrong on my own terms. Not so much IF something is right or wrong. But WHY something is right or wrong.

That’s the beauty of a change in faith. I can think for myself.

A few issues I’m still working through:

Assisted suicide
Abortion
Genome therapies
Legalized drugs
Legalized sex work

I’m sure there are a few more.

What moral or ethical issues have you had to rethink?

[Emower]

This is a hot topic for people , but I am still working through abortion. Church line is, "dont kill babies, no further analysis needed." I have had experiences now later in my life and after my apostasy that have taught me it is not a black and white issue like I always was taught. However I have not flipped to the "sure go for it" side, I just know its really really complicated and situation-dependent.

Pornography is another big one for me. Where is the line between consenting people, what they do with their time, if it hurts others, etc? The church line is that it is always harmful, if to no one else than the viewers and participants spirits and therefore it shuts down any further analysis. I obviously reject that, but the sex industry is not one I would support either. On the other hand, sex positivity is something people need, especially those of us screwed up by the church in that dept.

There are probably some more, but not ones I actively think about. I think about Abortion often because of our political environment, and the sex business often because lets face it, its always close to the surface no matter where you look and I live in Nevada. I dont expect I will ever "figure it out" though, because if you are now freed to think about WHY things are wrong, you realize that the WHY changes with circumstance, and the human experience is full of different circumstances. That is why God should be the ultimate judge, but the Church cannot help but usurp that role.

[Corsair]

A few issues I’m still working through:

Assisted suicide
Abortion
Genome therapies
Legalized drugs
Legalized sex work

My best "shoot from the hip" answer to these items would come down to decriminalization, counselling, and legal restrictions based on the real world effects of engaging in these activities. Drunk driving laws are the basic model I would start with.

There are several difficult dividing lines here, such as between items that should have laws against them and which can remain legal, but still be denounced by people that want to live in a rational manner. Marijuana is legal in my state, but I will likely never use it. There are activities that are extremely difficult to curtail. Except for (maybe) genome therapy, all of these items are impossible to fully outlaw. There is a good reason why prostitution is known as the "oldest profession".

The next level of complication comes from dealing with the subset of people that are going to ruin their own life by any of these items outside of any legal restriction against them. Oregon just decriminalized all drugs in small amounts including heroin so this experiment is about to get a real world test.

Overall, I am not prophet and can provide only complications when discussing these items. Most of Christianity is opposed to items on this list and we have seen how successful that has been for much of the world.

[Hagoth]

Church line is, "dont kill babies, no further analysis needed." I have had experiences now later in my life and after my apostasy that have taught me it is not a black and white issue like I always was taught.

I think that's a very important point. I certainly have my issues with abortion, but removing the black-and-white perspective makes a big difference. Is abortion homicide? If it's done to a baby the day before its birth, then I say yes, absolutely. If it's done to an undifferentiated cluster of cells, then absolutely not. Draw a line between those extremes and you have a continuum of degrees of homicideishness.

From the Mormon point of view abortion is unacceptable because there's a baby out there waiting to come to earth and if you abort it then it will have to go to the slums of Calcutta and be cursed with brown skin and exposure to Hinduism. So what if a teenage girl living in the slums of Calcutta has an abortion? By Mormon standards that must be a good thing, because the only direction is up, right?

[Hagoth]

Some things that have totally flipped for me:

Some guy in SLC has exclusive access to the divine
God needs your money
God really cares about your underwear
Hot drinks
Attitudes about LGBT+ people
Some guy down the street has authority to decide my worth
Priesthood has more magical power than Harry Potter cosplay
Spirituality comes from sitting in meetings and listening to "instructions"
There's a guy on a throne who gets really pissed if you aren't constantly fawning over him
Scripture is qualitatively superior to other old (or pretending to be old) books
Temples are more sacred than the desert
Following a specific checklist brings salvation
Families are forever, but only if you strictly follow the checklist

[Linked]

It has been really interesting to revisit moral situations after a faith transition. One big one for me was shifting from chastity to consent for sexual right/wrong. Being raised with chastity as the goal, I had not thought too much about what consent means and how to best respect a partner. I don't think I ever did anything too unbecoming, but looking back now I am ashamed that I was so focused on chastity that I failed to see the consent issues.

[Cnsl1]

Most definitely my behaviors and belief of what was "right and wrong" changed after disaffection with the church, but it's very important to point out, that for me at least, my theological belief drove the behavioral change. I didn't change behaviors first and then decide my beliefs were different.

After you no longer believe everything you once did, I think it's very natural to challenge the assumptions that some of the things you've been doing probably don't really matter or do not contribute to your happiness. Underwear, for instance. Probably doesn't matter what you wear. Coffee is probably just fine, even though I don't like it. Alcohol in moderation probably just fine, just be intelligent about it. One drink is not going to turn you into an alcoholic.

I still follow the rules of society, but don't feel all the extra Mormon rules are God inspired or right for everyone. I feel some measure of gratitude that I had these parameters growing up, but honestly I think my parents were smart and caring enough to have raised me well even if they wouldn't have assimilated the Mormon structures when I was about 13. I wasn't a convert, but my family had little activity with the church until I was about that age. Still, I was a good kid who was taught to be kind and honest and work hard, and really the only thing that was added with the Mormon assimilation ( that I can remember at least) was stuff outside my parents teachings and stuff that probably did cause undue guilt and stress. Mostly the sex stuff like masturbation is evil, etc. And you gotta pay tithing and then eventually wear the big boy underwear.

[Hagoth]

My biggest regret was that I learned my moral attitudes and behavior through shame, guilt, blaming, and prejudice, rather than through true understanding, empathy and common sense. I had to relearn many of my values all on my own by being brave enough to let go of their iron rod.

Note: iron is the adamic word for pvc pipe.

[moksha]

I'm also curious, given the unusual political climate, if there has also been a definitional shift in the words true and fake.

[hmb]

For the most part, my definition hasn't changed. I just get to have my definition guilt-free now.

[RubinHighlander]

My biggest regret was that I learned my moral attitudes and behavior through shame, guilt, blaming, and prejudice, rather than through true understanding, empathy and common sense. I had to relearn many of my values all on my own by being brave enough to let go of their iron rod.

Note: iron is the adamic word for pvc pipe.

PVC pipe. LOL!

I think this best describes it for me too. What bothers me is the way religions and political parties use these social issues as weapons to stir up and polarize their subscribers. The real meat of the issue is often lost in the rhetoric and noise of angry unproductive arguments from each side. We've seen this with abortion, BLM, national healthcare and many other issues.

It is in interesting perspective I find myself in at times with moral issues. Sometimes I sit back and look at the whole human race, evolution and the universe and just laugh at the big cosmic joke: Most of the little ape ego meat bags on this planet think they are the most important thing in existence, God's chosen ones, put here as his minion, leaders, eternal beings destined for forever greatness or misery. They think their laws, rules, dogmas, etc. are eternal and given to them from their God(s). Life on this planet is continually created and destroyed over and over again, as is all of the stuff in this universe. Eventually, all of it, every single cell of life, every element, every sub-atomic particle, every star and after trillions and trillions of years, every black hole will be dissipated into dead dark nothingness. Can there really be any eternal truths or anything that really matters if reality itself dies someday? How will you make worlds without end if the matter you'll need to make those worlds is broken down into particles that can no longer interact with each other and their energy has dissipated?

Then sometimes I think it does matter, it must matter somehow. I marvel at the amazing things evolution created; art, food, music, love, and the natural wonders of the world at all levels. I can't comprehend how the value of some moments that I have experienced, love shared between two beings, watching an amazing sunset or eclipse, a dragon fly doing flips after it catches prey, or just watching and capturing my dog running in slow motion video. How can none of these things matter? Yet, I have to accept that as a possibility, that maybe it doesn't matter. It's the great conundrum that we cannot unravel either way. Lately I've been leaning more toward the simulation or game scenario, that the sum of this existence does matter to something or someone somewhere. It's like that Rick and Morty episode where they go to a galactic arcade and play the Roy video game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szzVlQ653as

So don't be surprised if after you die you wake up confused and take off the helmet!
"Not bad Rubin, but you kind of waisted your most of your life in that LDS religion thing."
Okay, then how can I get more tokens?! Actually, I'm not sure I want to replay that one again...maybe.

Never go back to the carpet store!

[Red Ryder]

Lately I've been leaning more toward the simulation or game scenario, that the sum of this existence does matter to something or someone somewhere. It's like that Rick and Morty episode where they go to a galactic arcade and play the Roy video game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szzVlQ653as

So don't be surprised if after you die you wake up confused and take off the helmet!
"Not bad Rubin, but you kind of waisted your most of your life in that LDS religion thing."
Okay, then how can I get more tokens?! Actually, I'm not sure I want to replay that one again...maybe.

Never go back to the carpet store!

Love this! And welcome back from your absence here. I thought the simulation removed you from NOM. Where’s the other guy you’re related to been lately? I miss reading you guys!

I often joke with the wife about simulation theory. Yet it’s the only thing that makes sense to me in 2020. Like somebody playing the game hit the Narcissistic POTUS button then got bored so hit the pandemic mode.

[RubinHighlander]

Never go back to the carpet store!

Love this! And welcome back from your absence here. I thought the simulation removed you from NOM. Where’s the other guy you’re related to been lately? I miss reading you guys!

I often joke with the wife about simulation theory. Yet it’s the only thing that makes sense to me in 2020. Like somebody playing the game hit the Narcissistic POTUS button then got bored so hit the pandemic mode.

Thanks Red! I have not been a very good brothers keeper since winter hit; I'll have to check in on him. Seriously man, the narcissistic POTUS, along with many other world leader bozos must have triggered the pandemic, like some kind of safety mechanism or code to reduce the sapient craziness, maybe even The One to restart the simulation. Didn't work as well as it should have, probably by design, just poked the lawn bubble a little bit, made it giggle.

[moksha]

Never go back to the carpet store!

Rubin has gone off the grid!

[Hagoth]

... every sub-atomic particle, every star and after trillions and trillions of years, every black hole will be dissipated into dead dark nothingness.

Just about when I'll finally be ready to knuckle down and get that yard work done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szzVlQ653as

Brilliant!

[Hagoth]

Assisted suicide

When my son was about 13 he said, "we have enough compassion for our pets to let them die without pain, why can't we do that for our grandparents if that's what they choose?"

I didn't have an answer.

[Ghost]

Can there really be any eternal truths or anything that really matters if reality itself dies someday?

I've been trying for years now to come to terms with the idea that our morality is all arbitrary and made-up. I still follow and even care about a lot of the principles that I learned in Mormonism or in society or simply through experience, but sometimes it all feels cheap when I let myself think about it too much.

And does it really make a difference if there is a powerful being making the rules (or just enforcing them, if there are somehow eternal cosmic principles that apply to primates)? Maybe, but somehow I don't think that would be much comfort anymore were I convinced of it again.

The book of Ecclesiastes really rings true for me these days. Especially since the parts about God in the epilogue were apparently tacked on later.

I'm not sure who originated it, but I like the argument that we are more likely to be in a simulation right now that not. The idea is that if technology can reach a point where a convincing simulation is possible, there will be many more simulated worlds than "real" ones (of which there is just one). So the odds that we are in the real one are pretty small. Something like that, anyway.

[slavereeno]

My ethics and politics have definitely changed quite a bit. Not necessarily switching sides on everything but seeing a lot more gray areas, and general absurdity about the arguments surround issues of politics and ethics.

[RubinHighlander]

I'm not sure who originated it, but I like the argument that we are more likely to be in a simulation right now that not. The idea is that if technology can reach a point where a convincing simulation is possible, there will be many more simulated worlds than "real" ones (of which there is just one). So the odds that we are in the real one are pretty small. Something like that, anyway.

I often lean toward a simulation, but that just opens up another conundrum; who made the beings that made the simulation and are they in a simulation? It's like the Rick and Morty episode where Rick created a universe, waited until an intelligent species developed, then used that species to generate energy for his spaceship. Then a scientist in that universe did the same thing, killing the power to Rick's car. It's probably my favorite episode and really get's the heart of how crazy and messed up the multi-verse could be.

[jfro18]

Mine have been not in any kind of "scandalous" ways. I don't think sleeping around is OK and I haven't suddenly believed that you can rob a bank and live off the cash.

But it has made me rethink social issues and it's also made me realize that I am accountable for my actions because I am the one in control of them. There's no Mormon God who is going to punish me, so I have to get it right because I want to get it right, and there's no sacrament to just wash them away so I need to make sure I do my best the first time.

I will say politically I went through a lot more change going from a reliable Republican voter to a very centrist mindset... but that was more because of the current political environment than the church, although going down the rabbit hole shaped it as well.