April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

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Hagoth
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April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:12 pm

A loud alt-Right tone is sweeping through the church. All you have to do is read the angry and critical responses to the church newsroom Facebook post about Pres. Nelson getting vaccinated. I believe this will prove to be a much bigger threat to the church than all of the intellectuals, liberals, and equal rights voices.

In the wake of the capitol coup, the anti-vax/mask response to the pandemic, and the rise of groups like DezNat and self-proclaimed Captain Moronis I have to wonder how and if the church leaders will address the problem in the upcoming conference. I can imagine one of several things:

1) They can cluelessly ignore it, as they often do when the people really need the guidance of a living prophet. In which case, what use are they?

2) They can act like prophets, call for repentance, and strongly denounce the aspects they see as potentially dangerous to the church and many of its members.

3) They can follow the lead of some Republican politicians and jump on the bandwagon to ensure personal support, popularity and money flow.

4) They can follow the majority of Republican politicians and sit back and let the damage happen so they can turn the fallout to their best advantage.

For once, the church is not the most conservative game in town, but now they're getting hammered by the even-more-conservative contingent of church memberships. This is a really interesting situation, considering how vindictive church leaders can be toward non-believing members who speak out against them. They have had no problem openly denouncing liberal critics of the church and labeling them apostates. How will they deal with believing members who speak out against them? Liberals have the power to damage the church in the eyes of those who are willing to do the research, but now there is a rising threat that appeals to emotion rather than intellect, and could actually lead to a potential schism if not tamped down.

What will they do?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by wtfluff » Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:18 pm

I wonder if the Q15's bubble is so massively thick that they have no clue what's going on. Their minions are the only ones reading the "comment section" and those same minions keep telling the Q15 that "All is swell in Zion-tology™."
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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w2mz
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by w2mz » Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:55 pm

My guess is a combo of 1 & 4. They’ll just keep the same mantra as always about how all is well in the good ship Zion, and once it plays out they’ll bask in the glow of the faithful who find anything to latch onto to prove the profits knew it all along.
The church has engineered your eternal family into a commodity that can be purchased with an annual fee. The fact that full tithing payment is a requirement for saving ordinances is the biggest red flag imaginable. Hagoth

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blazerb
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by blazerb » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:13 pm

I am predicting that there will some ambiguous denouncement that is easily ignored by the most aggressive, conservative members but will give cover to progressive Mormons who don't want to be associated with those elements.

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Red Ryder
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:38 am

The playbook is simple on this one.

Give bland generic conference talks.
Kiss butt and praise President Nelson.
Sing a few hymns praising the Prophet.
Pan the Tab Cat Choir for minority members.
Leave 15 minutes for policy adjustments.
Let fear reign down for Jesus is coming again.

I think there’s always been a subsection of crazy members in the church. Most of them live in Vernal.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Hagoth
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:04 am

blazerb wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:13 pm
I am predicting that there will some ambiguous denouncement that is easily ignored by the most aggressive, conservative members but will give cover to progressive Mormons who don't want to be associated with those elements.
They seem to be able to craft their responses to real-world problems that have political implications in a way that allows people on both sides to come away feeling vindicated, as long as they remain in the ship.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Mormorrisey
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:08 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:38 am
The playbook is simple on this one.

Give bland generic conference talks.
Kiss butt and praise President Nelson.
Sing a few hymns praising the Prophet.
Pan the Tab Cat Choir for minority members.
Leave 15 minutes for policy adjustments.
Let fear reign down for Jesus is coming again.

I think there’s always been a subsection of crazy members in the church. Most of them live in Vernal.
Unfortunately, I think this is correct. As much as it pains me to write, I think attempting to ignore the large QUtah/QArizona/QIdaho quotient in the church is going to be the way forward for the leadership. It's just too big a group, they pay the freight (for the most part) and therefore they're not going to do too much to disturb this group in fear that they will leave the fold, and what sheep are they going to shear then? They are really between a rock and a hard place, and the church turtles when this choice comes upon them. So I'm sure April will come by with zero reference to what happened in January, lots of praising the man and statements that Jesus is coming, so you better be ready.

As much as I'd appreciate any word condemning the hardcore alt-right, and I'm with you on that Hagoth, I think what RR says here is what is going to happen in April. I will be very happy for RR to be wrong, but I don't think he is.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

Reuben
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by Reuben » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:55 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:04 am
blazerb wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:13 pm
I am predicting that there will some ambiguous denouncement that is easily ignored by the most aggressive, conservative members but will give cover to progressive Mormons who don't want to be associated with those elements.
They seem to be able to craft their responses to real-world problems that have political implications in a way that allows people on both sides to come away feeling vindicated, as long as they remain in the ship.
I think they'll do this, too, but perhaps less intentionally than we tend to accuse them of. I think the apparent forked tongue often arises from putting clear speech through correlation. Once it's been altered to offend nobody except apostates and heretics, it just reinforces existing beliefs.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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wtfluff
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by wtfluff » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:17 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:38 am
I think there’s always been a subsection of crazy members in the church. Most of them live in Vernal.
:D :mrgreen: :D :mrgreen: :D :mrgreen: :D :mrgreen: :D
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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alas
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by alas » Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:06 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:17 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:38 am
I think there’s always been a subsection of crazy members in the church. Most of them live in Vernal.
:D :mrgreen: :D :mrgreen: :D :mrgreen: :D :mrgreen: :D
I thought that La Virkin was the undisputed capital of crazies. They after all voted to withdraw from the United Nations. What has Vernal ever done to top that?

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wtfluff
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by wtfluff » Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:16 pm

alas wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:06 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:17 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:38 am
I think there’s always been a subsection of crazy members in the church. Most of them live in Vernal.
:D :mrgreen: :D :mrgreen: :D :mrgreen: :D :mrgreen: :D
I thought that La Virkin was the undisputed capital of crazies. They after all voted to withdraw from the United Nations. What has Vernal ever done to top that?
Dinosaurs.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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Red Ryder
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:52 pm

alas wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:06 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:17 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:38 am
I think there’s always been a subsection of crazy members in the church. Most of them live in Vernal.
:D :mrgreen: :D :mrgreen: :D :mrgreen: :D :mrgreen: :D
I thought that La Virkin was the undisputed capital of crazies. They after all voted to withdraw from the United Nations. What has Vernal ever done to top that?
I was referring to Tonya, the one girl I actually liked at Ricks College; who told me that because I wasn’t an RM yet she couldn’t go grab pizza and spend the evening bowling. My confidence to date at Ricks was dashed to shreds and I knew at that moment that I was destined to serve a mission or be forever damned to an empty night of pizza and video games with roommates.

That and dinosaurs.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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2bizE
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by 2bizE » Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:49 pm

I thought the Gays were the biggest threat to the church and our white, Mormon heterosexual lifestyle. Now it appears to be Trumpeteers.
~2bizE

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moksha
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by moksha » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:37 pm

Crazy Conservatism first started up with Joseph F. Smith and his antagonistic approach to science and literalist approach to religion. The Church kept the crazy conservatism on to boil back in the 1930s with J. Reuben Clark and his anti-semitism. Clark's antisemitism had to go under wraps in the 1940s when America was at war with Nazi Germany. It emerged floridly with Utah admiration for Sen. Joseph McCarthy and the rise of Ezra Taft Benson and Cleon Skousen.

Ezra Taft Benson built a cult following that still haunts the Church today, especially in its rural enclaves. The fascist inclinations of pre-WWII Mormonism have been reignited by Trump.

Will the Church try to ignore it? Will they chastise members for being Trump cultists? Wtfluff made a great observation in questioning how much the handlers let any of this penetrate the Q15 bubble.

BTW, LaVerkin is not alone. They have their sister city in loopiness, Hurricane, Utah (pronounced hurkin to rhyme with LaVerkin) to keep them company.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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nibbler
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by nibbler » Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:18 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:04 am
blazerb wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:13 pm
I am predicting that there will some ambiguous denouncement that is easily ignored by the most aggressive, conservative members but will give cover to progressive Mormons who don't want to be associated with those elements.
They seem to be able to craft their responses to real-world problems that have political implications in a way that allows people on both sides to come away feeling vindicated, as long as they remain in the ship.
That's been the plan thus far. I believe they truly want to remain as politically neutral as possible but by the time anything comes out of correlation and legal it's a neutered mess that validates both sides and as a result they take no stand at all.

Recent update to the handbook of instruction:
Members of the Church should seek out and share only credible, reliable, and factual sources of information. They should avoid sources that are speculative or founded on rumor.
Members watching Fox News walk away from that statement patting themselves on the back for avoiding the fake news on CNN and members watching CNN walk away from that statement thinking they're talking about the people watching Fox News. In the end no one changes; people are conditioned to believe that it's always the other guy that needs to change, not themselves.

With respect to the April 20201 general conference...

It's probable that the talks were already written and submitted to be correlated, recorrelated, and translated long before the events on January 6th. Covid caught the church with their G's down for the April 2020 general conference. People had a good idea of how serious covid would be in January 2020 but it was hardly referenced during conference in April.

Conference, just like the church in general, lags behind the rest of the world. The established formula for producing a general conference talk isn't designed to respond to current events, it's far too lumbering a process.

We may get a vague reference about extremism, similar to the vague references to the pandemic in April 2020, but it will be treated with kiddie gloves and provide plenty of outs for people to convince themselves that their attitudes and actions are justified, it's the other guys that need to listen!
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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2bizE
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by 2bizE » Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:58 am

wtfluff wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:18 pm
I wonder if the Q15's bubble is so massively thick that they have no clue what's going on. Their minions are the only ones reading the "comment section" and those same minions keep telling the Q15 that "All is swell in Zion-tology™."
In the last 10 years, I have heard the Brethren say they are Acutely aware of the problems members face today. I don’t believe them. The bubble they live in seems too thick to penetrate. They are surrounded by body guards of reality. Nothing but Faith promoting messages get through the bubble.
Last edited by 2bizE on Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
~2bizE

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alas
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by alas » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:27 pm

moksha wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:37 pm
Crazy Conservatism first started up with Joseph F. Smith and his antagonistic approach to science and literalist approach to religion. The Church kept the crazy conservatism on to boil back in the 1930s with J. Reuben Clark and his anti-semitism. Clark's antisemitism had to go under wraps in the 1940s when America was at war with Nazi Germany. It emerged floridly with Utah admiration for Sen. Joseph McCarthy and the rise of Ezra Taft Benson and Cleon Skousen.

Ezra Taft Benson built a cult following that still haunts the Church today, especially in its rural enclaves. The fascist inclinations of pre-WWII Mormonism have been reignited by Trump.

Will the Church try to ignore it? Will they chastise members for being Trump cultists? Wtfluff made a great observation in questioning how much the handlers let any of this penetrate the Q15 bubble.

BTW, LaVerkin is not alone. They have their sister city in loopiness, Hurricane, Utah (pronounced hurkin to rhyme with LaVerkin) to keep them company.

Posting from my home in Hurricane Utah.

Actually, my neighborhood is pretty sane. Mostly retired and recent transplants, across the street there are two houses where the couples moved here from Cali, next door are liberals from Cali, and back east? Down the street there are the liberals from Montana, and the motorcycle gal from Chicago. Only two Trump signs in the whole subdivision. Hurricane is REALLY growing with most people coming in from out of state, so not bad at all. LaVerkin now, it is just across the river, but very few new houses and very few move ins from out of state. But, yeah, the natives are nuts. Locals are loco. With River Morgan being an exception.

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moksha
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by moksha » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:48 am

alas wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:27 pm
LaVerkin now, it is just across the river, but very few new houses and very few move ins from out of state. But, yeah, the natives are nuts. Locals are loco. With River Morgan being an exception.
Glad to hear that Hurricane has become more cosmopolitan than LaVerkin.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:45 am

moksha wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:37 pm
Will the Church try to ignore it? Will they chastise members for being Trump cultists?
If anyone should be called on the carpet it would be Mike Lee for declaring that Trump is the new Captain Moroni. He clearly crossed the line and took the authority to tell Mormons to follow Trump as a sign of loyalty to the church. Crickets. Might it have been another story if a more liberal Mormon, or God forbid a woman, had said the same about Biden? I dunno.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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DPRoberts
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Re: April Conference and the Elephant in the Chapel

Post by DPRoberts » Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:32 pm

I don't have a lot to add, but our Stake held conference this month, not that long after the 6th, and there were a couple of things that seemed driven by recent events (I only tuned into the live stream sporadically, but did pick up a couple things).

The SP actually spoke against racial prejudice. Of course, the man is oblivious to the church's lack of moral authority on the matter, but for the MOTCOJCOLDS conditioned to ignore the past, hopefully his message took root where it was needed. But he was in large degree preaching to the choir here in one of the more liberal bastions of the church.

The Seventy did something I had been waiting 4 years for. He actually dusted off the BoM teachings about contention being inspired by Satan. So if things actually get to the point of violence church leaders might say something. But they seem oblivious before that happens. The thing that I keep telling myself is that I should be shocked by the events of January 6, and I am, but not in the "I did not see it coming" way. The foundation had been carefully laid in practically every official act and Tweet from POTUS. Contention was his everyday tool of choice, used to stir men to anger, just as the scriptures say. But the late commentary coming from church leaders suggest they really did not see what was coming.

The excellent comments on this thread about what we can expect, I think, are dead on. Between correlation and fear of losing tithe payers I expect church leaders to say nothing plain or direct. This goes against my former expectations of what P,S, and Rs should be. That was largely influenced by the high bar Hugh B Brown set in his Profile of a Prophet speech. One thing he said about a prophet was
Hugh B. Brown wrote:Any man claiming to be a prophet of God would declare his message without any fear and without making any weak concessions to public opinion.
But instead of having my testimony strengthened by men who fit the profile, I find myself in the postion of HBB's learned friend
Hugh B Brown quoting the learned Judge wrote: I would to God,” he said, and he wept as he said it, “that some man could appear on earth and authoritatively say, ‘Thus saith the Lord.’”
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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