Crap

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Palerider
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Re: Crap

Post by Palerider » Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:30 pm

I'm just wondering......

If the son or daughter of TBM parents began drinking coffee and skipping church as an older teen or as an adult, would the parents shut them out, throw them out or even take steps to legally "divorce" or disown them?

No....they would suffer patiently. Keep loving them. Keep encouraging them while trying to preserve the relationship.

Is a husband or a wife any less valuable than a daughter or son????

Do the Biblical scriptures carry no weight whatsoever in this case? If a spouse is married to a non-believer and they be pleased to dwell with them then they shouldn't seek a divorce according to the scriptures that TBMs claim to believe in.

I know there's such a thing as Bishop or Stake Pres. roulette but I'm wondering if a "man to man" visit with the Bishop where the truth is told might actually help the situation.

If one goes in with the intent to lay it all out regarding the church and yet strongly maintains that they want to be a good husband and father and preserve the marriage...... isn't that what Bishops are supposed to encourage......the preservation of the marriage? Wouldn't it help to have the Bishop on your side or at least to act as a calming influence on your wife? Because she's definitely over-reacting.

Shouldn't a good Bishop see that a stable, loving marriage is better for the children than a single mom struggling to make ends meet?

One thing I would confirm as others here have is that the truth is your best weapon. No more hiding. No more sneaking around for coffee. It's the deception that hurts worse than the actual offense.

For what it's worth....
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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moksha
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Re: Crap

Post by moksha » Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:23 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:30 pm
Is a husband or a wife any less valuable than a daughter or son????
Wouldn't that depend on the severity of their childhood brainwashing?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Crap

Post by Hagoth » Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:49 am

Palerider wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:30 pm
Do the Biblical scriptures carry no weight whatsoever in this case?
No. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. It is only translated correctly when it suits our needs.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Crap

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:28 am

“Hagoth” wrote:I realized there wasn't a storm at all. It was all the invention of the other people in the boat who were jumping up and down and screaming about how much danger there is outside of the boat, and there I was standing in calm knee-deep water, out of the storm for the first time in decades.
Love this!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

stuck
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Re: Crap

Post by stuck » Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:59 pm

Great response Palerider! One of my wife's concerns is that drinking coffee would make me unworthy to give priesthood blessings and such. But I think if that is still a concern that we could go to the bishop and I am guessing that he would confirm that drinking coffee doesn't make us unworthy to give priesthood blessings--probably going to the temple but not giving priesthood blessings. Anyway, it would be nice to see the church relax their standards of drinking coffee and tea--but like someone said earlier perhaps they like the control more than they like the truth :evil:

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Hagoth
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Re: Crap

Post by Hagoth » Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:05 pm

stuck wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:59 pm
Great response Palerider! One of my wife's concerns is that drinking coffee would make me unworthy to give priesthood blessings and such.
If coffee, tea, whiskey, wine, beer, and tobacco didn't make Joseph and Brigham unworthy they probably won't make you unworthy either.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Linked
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Re: Crap

Post by Linked » Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:27 am

Thank you again to everyone for your comments in this thread! DW and I are speaking pretty well. She's further into considering divorce than ever before, but I think it's probably healthy. I had to stare at the precipice before I could really decide I would rather stay myself, maybe she needs the same. Or maybe she needs to leave for her wellbeing. I can make peace with that.

I told her that the freedom to get coffee is important to me and that I have to have space for that. I also told her that I will try to give her the space she needs to believe the way she needs to (i.e. not roll my eyes if I see her reading her scriptures. I'm not sure if I've ever done that, but she feels judged by me for reading scriptures because I don't believe.). She's not happy about my coffee, but I think it's a healthy boundary to set. She asked me if I'm addicted :roll:
Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:04 pm
If he’s drinking coffee in secret, what else is he hiding?

Alcohol?
Porn?
A comic book collection?
A girlfriend?
A LEGO set he wasn’t going to buy?
A polygamist wife?

That’s the thought process our TBM spouses go through. Just be honest and upfront. Let her know the prophet hasn’t authorized a second wife yet and no flaming angel swords have been drawn.
Yep, that sounds about right. And that's hard for my DW to live with. She relies on me for all of her social life, so if she can't trust me she is very lonely indeed. (She struggles to connect with people even in the best of times, but as a SAHM it's even harder. I try to encourage her social life, until she gets mad at me for encouraging her.)
wtfluff wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:04 pm
Seems to me the unrealistic/impossible expectations built into MORmONism seem to be a cause of this sort of behavior; and I'm not just referring to "mixed faith" relationships. (Or maybe it's just me...)
Hard agree. But getting a TBM to see that seems impossible. DW started talking to me again and expressed major concerns about how she and the kids will be judged for my coffee drinking, and how that makes me selfish and bad. I am trying to get her to see that she should be mad at the people judging her and not at me. Or at least mad at them too. And at the culture that created them. Like I am... And ultimately that these shared expectations are the root of the problem. (And where could a bunch of mormons in Utah have possibly gotten a set of toxic shared expectations???) So far no traction there though. I'm just a terrible covenant breaker.
alas wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:12 pm
Your spouse needs to see and accept “why”. Whatever your “why” is. Like with me, it was that the church is not good for me emotionally. He saw that. Then I told him and he was able to accept it.

So, for a lot of you it is going to be “truth.” The church was started by a con man telling a bunch of lies and it continues to tell these lies. Boy, those words are going to backfire. So, you need to find words your spouse can accept. Make it about you, not the lies. Something along the lines of, “I need a view of reality that fits together, logically, with all the facts lining up. God knows this about me, cause God made me.”

Your spouse needs to know you did your best to figure out how to be a good honest person. This idea goes directly in the face of the big lie the church tells its members. The church tells people that anyone who honestly investigates the church will see it is TRUE. But that is a bigger lie than trump winning the election. The truth is that the more you investigate, the more you see that the church is not what it claims. But how do you get you spouse past the big lie?

This is where some couples have a big advantage if they are willing to investigate the church’s truth claims together as a couple. Then each spouse sees the effort to find truth that the other person puts in. Factual truth has to matter to your spouse, or you have to explain to your spouse that while real truth may not matter to them, it matters to you. Some people really don’t care if the church is factually true. Them wanting and believing it is true is all that matters for them to enjoy all the social perks. Other people really need it to be factually correct. Your spouse needs to know that you need it to be factually correct and you have investigated as best you can and it is not.

They don’t need to understand your journey, but they need to see it. So, let them see you studying church history. Invite them to study with you.

Don’t lie about the stupid stuff. I know, water under the bridge, but repent. Drinking coffee is the stupid stuff. Her being upset isn’t about the coffee, it is about trust. Can they trust you? Not if you do things behind their backs or lie about it. They won’t think you are honest about the big things if they catch you doing stuff behind their backs or lying about little stuff. So, if you want their trust, earn it. If you have screwed up, apologize and promise not to ever do that again. You want their trust, so earn it by being 100% honest about your journey. Don’t lie or go behind their back or you lose trust. It isn’t about the coffee, it is about trust. How many times should I repeat this?

Your spouse isn’t your mother and you aren’t a kid. Your spouse is your equal and your relationship isn’t about avoiding getting caught. Earn their trust and they will believe you when you say that the church doesn’t work for you, and you have studied and it still isn’t working for you. But if they can’t trust you, no wonder they think you are being evil about your attitude toward the church. Act like a wicked apostate and they will treat you like a wicked apostate. Act like you are honestly trying to be a good person, and they will have second thoughts on the wicked apostate stereotype.
Good points. I would love to not lie about the stupid stuff, but I get in trouble if I don't :? ... It's easy for me to understand that the better path is to have the tough conversation, but it's like planning to stub your barefoot toe on a chair. I planned a discussion about coffee half a dozen times in the past year but couldn't pull the trigger. Time to man-up?

My journey is a little different than most as well, I started to notice that a lot of the church's and church member's stances were not very sound and that I disagreed with the methods used to maintain them. Also, that those stances were not fair. The in-group out-group stuff by claiming that "the world" was so bad and only our church can really protect you. The plight of realizing you were gay as a mormon. The frailty of mormon epistemology. The way faith is basically priming oneself for confirmation bias. Seeing people strongly believe something totally wrong about engineering stuff, and then thinking if people can be this wrong about something easy to prove, how can I trust anything people believe about something unproveable?

I did share these things with my wife as they happened, but they were mainly viewed as me being a negative nancy, and DW just got mad at me for being a bad person with a negative outlook when I would share. Then I realized I probably shouldn't believe anymore based on what I saw, and she found out, and now my opinion means less than nothing to her. And to her I am the furthest thing from a good, honest person with no path to fix it. Even if I proclaimed I refound my faith she would probably suspect I was lying until the day I die.

I've been a pretty damn good husband and father for the past couple years. She listed some of the things that she is frustrated with me about and as we talked about them she begrudgingly admitted that they do not apply anymore. But I don't think the intellectual admission has sunk into her emotions.

And I love the way you used "the big lie" here!
Reuben wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:28 pm
When the other spouse is being inflexible about it, not drinking the bean juice is the only option that doesn't result in damnation. Flying to pieces like glass is a tool people sometimes use to get what they want, whether they know they're doing it or not.
Yep. And when they don't realize that they are using flying to pieces as their tool to express what they want then they think that they never ask for or get anything that they want. There must be a better way to express what you want.
jfro18 wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:02 pm
I don't know how this ties into Linked's issue, except that I always thought she was trying to catch me half asleep to say "yeah I had a few drinks tonight" or something, and I always wondered what would have happened had I had something to drink that night. It really bothered me because I knew she felt like if I had a drink I was totally betraying her, and it bothered me because she didn't have the trust or at least mindset to just ask me.
If she's like my DW she had been up all night stewing on it and finally got the nerve to confront you about it at 3am. It is super frustrating. The complete and utter lack of empathy is really painful. Especially when they tell you that you are the one who is lacking empathy by having a change in belief.
Hagoth wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:48 pm
Clinging to the lifeboat kept me going for a couple of years before the final thread snapped and I had to let go. I told Mrs. Hagoth about what an eye-opening experience that was. I realized there wasn't a storm at all. It was all the invention of the other people in the boat who were jumping up and down and screaming about how much danger there is outside of the boat, and there I was standing in calm knee-deep water, out of the storm for the first time in decades.
Great analogy. The storm is all in the heads of the believers, and in a highly mormon community they create the storm for people who leave. Maybe he meant it as a threat?

It's telling that mormon leadership tell their followers that life is like being in a lifeboat in a storm, and the followers believe them. Because life as a believing mormon sucks. It is a storm. It's just a storm manufactured by the church that they use to convince you that things are stormy and they have the solution. It's a freaking racket.
Palerider wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:30 pm
Shouldn't a good Bishop see that a stable, loving marriage is better for the children than a single mom struggling to make ends meet?
My DW would rather not talk with me, the bishop, or anyone about my disaffection. She is deeply afraid of the social consequences for her and our kids. I suspect our bishop would give her the advice you suggest though, he's a pretty good dude from what I can see.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

Reuben
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Re: Crap

Post by Reuben » Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:11 pm

Linked, it sounds like your wife holds you to an impossible standard. Does she hold herself to an impossible standard?

It also sounds like she imagines that other people hold you to an impossible standard. Does she imagine that other people hold her to an impossible standard?

Does she think she meets the standard that she and other people hold her to?
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

hmb
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Re: Crap

Post by hmb » Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:33 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:05 pm
stuck wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:59 pm
Great response Palerider! One of my wife's concerns is that drinking coffee would make me unworthy to give priesthood blessings and such.
If coffee, tea, whiskey, wine, beer, and tobacco didn't make Joseph and Brigham unworthy they probably won't make you unworthy either.
Ah, but by that logic you can seduce and marry 14 year olds. Wouldn't you then be worthy still? Maybe that requires a threatening angel. But you could claim there was an angel threatening you to marry a minor.

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Hagoth
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Re: Crap

Post by Hagoth » Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:48 am

hmb wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:33 am
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:05 pm
stuck wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:59 pm
Great response Palerider! One of my wife's concerns is that drinking coffee would make me unworthy to give priesthood blessings and such.
If coffee, tea, whiskey, wine, beer, and tobacco didn't make Joseph and Brigham unworthy they probably won't make you unworthy either.
Ah, but by that logic you can seduce and marry 14 year olds. Wouldn't you then be worthy still? Maybe that requires a threatening angel. But you could claim there was an angel threatening you to marry a minor.
There's always the option of putting your Priesthood Foot down. "I have the priesthood so whatever I do outranks whatever you think." Isn't it the job of the woman to humbly submit to the man? That's basically how men are still dragging their wives into polygamous marriages against their will and better judgement. RFM's interview with his friend Sue is a great example of that.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

hmb
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Re: Crap

Post by hmb » Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:22 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:48 am
hmb wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:33 am
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:05 pm

If coffee, tea, whiskey, wine, beer, and tobacco didn't make Joseph and Brigham unworthy they probably won't make you unworthy either.
Ah, but by that logic you can seduce and marry 14 year olds. Wouldn't you then be worthy still? Maybe that requires a threatening angel. But you could claim there was an angel threatening you to marry a minor.
There's always the option of putting your Priesthood Foot down. "I have the priesthood so whatever I do outranks whatever you think." Isn't it the job of the woman to humbly submit to the man?
Oh that's right, silly me. What do I know? I have a female brain. I wonder how many cows I'm worth? Oopsie, wrong story.

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Hagoth
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Re: Crap

Post by Hagoth » Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:23 am

hmb wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:22 am
Oh that's right, silly me. What do I know? I have a female brain. I wonder how many cows I'm worth? Oopsie, wrong story.
Lest we forget:
His Majesty strolling into General Priesthood meeting:
Image

The Sweet Sisters' view:
Image
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Crap

Post by Red Ryder » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:50 pm

Hey hey now....

We all put our garments on, yeah even the authorized pattern, one foot at a time.

No need to pull priesthood rank.

We are equally loved by the Lord until further policy adjustments are received.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Linked
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Re: Crap

Post by Linked » Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:13 am

Reuben wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:11 pm
Linked, it sounds like your wife holds you to an impossible standard. Does she hold herself to an impossible standard?
Yes, definitely. A conflicting, impossible standard. A lot of it is the standard impossible expectations for the mormon mom. I strive to give her space to develop her own standards based on her own self and needs, but I assume that is received as me trying to get her to distance herself from the church (i.e. not received).
Reuben wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:11 pm
It also sounds like she imagines that other people hold you to an impossible standard. Does she imagine that other people hold her to an impossible standard?
Yes. Right now the most salient expectation she is concerned with not meeting is that she have the typical mormon family. She is very concerned with how her family relationships will change and how our neighborhood relationships will change if they know that I am no longer toeing the line. She knows that she will become a pariah and that people will treat her and the kids differently. She seems less concerned/aware about how I will be treated differently, because this is my fault.

Over the years her effort to meet this standard is to cry at my family gatherings if we get too open about my change in beliefs. To act like I am still TBM to the neighbors and her family. To go to pieces whenever my disaffection or something related to it comes up.
Reuben wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:11 pm
Does she think she meets the standard that she and other people hold her to?
She has the standard guilt about not doing enough scripture study or teaching her kids well enough. I think that she doesn't know how to process her failure as a chooser of husbands. She thinks that up until church restarted and I did not show up with my butt in the pew that she met the standard well enough to avoid the negative. It's actually kind of ironic. As I hid coffee from her to avoid consequences, she hides me from her family and our neighbors to avoid consequences. Of course, she rightfully has more of an expectation to know about my coffee than her family and neighbors have to know about her husband, but the parallel remains.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

Reuben
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Re: Crap

Post by Reuben » Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:36 pm

Linked wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:13 am
Reuben wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:11 pm
Linked, it sounds like your wife holds you to an impossible standard. Does she hold herself to an impossible standard?
Yes, definitely. A conflicting, impossible standard. A lot of it is the standard impossible expectations for the mormon mom. I strive to give her space to develop her own standards based on her own self and needs, but I assume that is received as me trying to get her to distance herself from the church (i.e. not received).
Reuben wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:11 pm
It also sounds like she imagines that other people hold you to an impossible standard. Does she imagine that other people hold her to an impossible standard?
Yes. Right now the most salient expectation she is concerned with not meeting is that she have the typical mormon family. She is very concerned with how her family relationships will change and how our neighborhood relationships will change if they know that I am no longer toeing the line. She knows that she will become a pariah and that people will treat her and the kids differently. She seems less concerned/aware about how I will be treated differently, because this is my fault.

Over the years her effort to meet this standard is to cry at my family gatherings if we get too open about my change in beliefs. To act like I am still TBM to the neighbors and her family. To go to pieces whenever my disaffection or something related to it comes up.
Reuben wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:11 pm
Does she think she meets the standard that she and other people hold her to?
She has the standard guilt about not doing enough scripture study or teaching her kids well enough. I think that she doesn't know how to process her failure as a chooser of husbands. She thinks that up until church restarted and I did not show up with my butt in the pew that she met the standard well enough to avoid the negative. It's actually kind of ironic. As I hid coffee from her to avoid consequences, she hides me from her family and our neighbors to avoid consequences. Of course, she rightfully has more of an expectation to know about my coffee than her family and neighbors have to know about her husband, but the parallel remains.
Alrighty, that all makes sense. I've got one more question if you'd like to answer it. Does every one of her impossible standards have to do with Mormonism?

Here's where I'm going with this. I think it's likely this is a pattern of behavior that's been expressed through Mormonism. If that's true, you might have some indirect strategies that would help both of you. That is, if the problem is impossible standards in general rather than impossible Mormon standards, you might be able to separate Mormonism from them to address them without it being such a threat.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Linked
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Re: Crap

Post by Linked » Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:58 pm

Reuben wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:36 pm
Alrighty, that all makes sense. I've got one more question if you'd like to answer it. Does every one of her impossible standards have to do with Mormonism?

Here's where I'm going with this. I think it's likely this is a pattern of behavior that's been expressed through Mormonism. If that's true, you might have some indirect strategies that would help both of you. That is, if the problem is impossible standards in general rather than impossible Mormon standards, you might be able to separate Mormonism from them to address them without it being such a threat.
Good question. No, not all of her impossible standards have to do with Mormonism. I'm not sure how to separate these though. It would require pointing out that she has impossible standards which she seems less interested in hearing. I've failed to meet her impossible standard to be her only close relationship for most of our marriage and she is not of fan of that discussion.

And thank you for taking the time to read and respond, it is appreciated.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Linked
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Re: Crap

Post by Linked » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:35 am

Just a quick update. DW seems to prefer staying together in spite of me grabbing a morning coffee. Things are largely back to how they were before, which I am happy with. Hopefully she is too. I do wonder if she is just biding her time while she works with a lawyer, but I guess I won't know until the shoe drops if that's the case.

Thank you all for your support through this tough time for me! NOM, you're the best.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

annotatedbom
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Re: Crap

Post by annotatedbom » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:20 pm

Linked wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:35 am
Just a quick update. DW seems to prefer staying together in spite of me grabbing a morning coffee. Things are largely back to how they were before, which I am happy with. Hopefully she is too. I do wonder if she is just biding her time while she works with a lawyer, but I guess I won't know until the shoe drops if that's the case.

Thank you all for your support through this tough time for me! NOM, you're the best.
This is great news Linked! I hope she really does prefer staying together.

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moksha
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Re: Crap

Post by moksha » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:17 am

Linked wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:35 am
I do wonder if she is just biding her time while she works with a lawyer, but I guess I won't know until the shoe drops if that's the case.
Lining up a lawyer with briefs against both French and Italian roasts? Let's hope she has come to her senses about this coffee nonsense!

Will keep our fingers crossed for you. Best wishes.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Cnsl1
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Re: Crap

Post by Cnsl1 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:54 am

Obviously there are at least two sides to every story, but in the version you've presented, your DW is selfish, judgmental, and emotionally very immature. Also probably carrying around a lot of anxiety.

Her biggest concern is what the church neighbors will think?

Not even that her family won't be together forever, but just that her family will be looked upon differently by the church community. {Mind Blown}

Also obviously there will be a good deal of this church community that won't give a crap whether you drink coffee or not. Some will love it cuz that'll give them something to gossip about.

Your DW is probably in that latter group since she's worried about becoming the social pariah.

She probably does not want to know any of your reasons for disaffection. She'd rather not know if it's not true. Fear and anxiety.

I know people like this.

Emotional growth and maturity doesn't come easy or without sweat and tears.

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