Crap

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Just This Guy
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Re: Crap

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:22 am

Linked, do you live in Utah/ the Moridor?

The reason I ask is it sounds like the coffee drinking is has more impact from a social acceptance standpoint than it id from a behavioral impact standpoint to your DW.

If it is Utah, realistically, how accepted is coffee drinking? I don't know. The only part of Utah I have seen in the last 18 years is layovers in the SLC airport. My understanding is that with the decline of TBMs and the rise of large groups of ex-mo's, coffee and other things are gaining more social acceptance.

So are you in a community that is still more conservative on acceptance of what people drink, or is your DW projecting some of her feelings and bias on other people?
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Linked
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Re: Crap

Post by Linked » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:03 am

annotatedbom wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:20 pm
This is great news Linked! I hope she really does prefer staying together.
moksha wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:17 am
Lining up a lawyer with briefs against both French and Italian roasts? Let's hope she has come to her senses about this coffee nonsense!

Will keep our fingers crossed for you. Best wishes.
Thanks! Things are looking good.
Cnsl1 wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:54 am
Obviously there are at least two sides to every story, but in the version you've presented, your DW is selfish, judgmental, and emotionally very immature. Also probably carrying around a lot of anxiety.

Her biggest concern is what the church neighbors will think?

Not even that her family won't be together forever, but just that her family will be looked upon differently by the church community. {Mind Blown}

Also obviously there will be a good deal of this church community that won't give a crap whether you drink coffee or not. Some will love it cuz that'll give them something to gossip about.

Your DW is probably in that latter group since she's worried about becoming the social pariah.

She probably does not want to know any of your reasons for disaffection. She'd rather not know if it's not true. Fear and anxiety.

I know people like this.

Emotional growth and maturity doesn't come easy or without sweat and tears.
Yeah, I struggle understand the full picture, and struggle to convey even what I understand here. But I don't think you are wrong in your assessment, though I do think she's a pretty good lady in spite of it. She was raised a certain way and she's trying to be the best person she can be. My efforts are to get her to come out of that box enough to understand me and appreciate how I'm trying to be the best person I can be.

DW is both totally selfless and very selfish at the same time. Everything she does is for someone else. Whether me or the kids or the ward or her parents/siblings/grandma or the community at large. My take is that she does this because she has core values to stay busy, to be responsible, and is uncomfortable thinking about her own wants and needs. Because those are her core values she thinks that down time is bad, and being selective in what commitments one makes/keeps is bad. She feels that taking care of herself is selfish. She thinks that taking large amounts of time to understand is a waste of time. She is very much a doer, and not a thinker. (She is smart, I'm not knocking her intellect, she just prefers to be doing rather than thinking about stuff). The church is great for people like that. They give them plenty to do, too much even. A doer will never have to stop and think with the church guiding them. And DW has definitely internalized that doing what the church says and silently encourages is RIGHT. You are right, these characteristics do not lead to a well developed emotional maturity. Sometimes I feel like she acts like a teenager. But in her way she is awesome and amazing. She does so much and at a great sacrifice to herself. Just not as great a cost as addressing her wants and needs, and really taking time to understand the situation.

We are all judgmental, it's the most human thing there is. I think the real question is what criteria one uses to judge. For DW, it's those things in her core values and the church. Based on her criteria I am just a crappy person. I'm very much a thinker, so she considers that laziness and lack of motivation. I take care of myself as needed so I'm lazy and selfish. I am always assessing what my wants are, if they are appropriate, and updating them. On top of that, I push her to own her wants and needs in the way she asks for things, which adds me being annoying to just being a bad person. As part of the high emotions last week I made an emotional case for her to stop thinking that I am a terrible person.

DW is very socially anxious. That's why what the neighbors think matters to her. She's also worried about what her family thinks. She's worried her mom will get depressed. And she's worried that her sister will hold it over her that she has the perfect family and DW doesn't. And as a SAHM that social circle is all she has. I don't think it's as easy as saying that she shouldn't care what people think about her.

She has definitely preferred avoiding my reasons for disaffection. She gets depressed for a week if we talk about it in depth.

But things seem a little different after the tough discussions last week. She has been more open to saying what she wants. She has been more genuinely loving to me than ever; snuggling and reaching for my hand. Maybe we made some progress.


Just This Guy wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:22 am
Linked, do you live in Utah/ the Moridor?

The reason I ask is it sounds like the coffee drinking is has more impact from a social acceptance standpoint than it id from a behavioral impact standpoint to your DW.

If it is Utah, realistically, how accepted is coffee drinking? I don't know. The only part of Utah I have seen in the last 18 years is layovers in the SLC airport. My understanding is that with the decline of TBMs and the rise of large groups of ex-mo's, coffee and other things are gaining more social acceptance.

So are you in a community that is still more conservative on acceptance of what people drink, or is your DW projecting some of her feelings and bias on other people?
Yeah, I'm in Utah. If I were to drink coffee at work no one would care. But if my in-laws saw it it would be like dropping a nuclear bomb on the idea that we are good mormon people. It really is about the control aspect, and that if I am breaking that rule then I must be very lost, which in their view I am (if they knew, which they don't at DW's request). DW does also have some minor concerns about the health impacts of the insidious bean drink; she asked me if I'm addicted like it was meth.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Just This Guy
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Re: Crap

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:04 pm

Linked wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:03 am
Just This Guy wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:22 am
Linked, do you live in Utah/ the Moridor?

The reason I ask is it sounds like the coffee drinking is has more impact from a social acceptance standpoint than it id from a behavioral impact standpoint to your DW.

If it is Utah, realistically, how accepted is coffee drinking? I don't know. The only part of Utah I have seen in the last 18 years is layovers in the SLC airport. My understanding is that with the decline of TBMs and the rise of large groups of ex-mo's, coffee and other things are gaining more social acceptance.

So are you in a community that is still more conservative on acceptance of what people drink, or is your DW projecting some of her feelings and bias on other people?
Yeah, I'm in Utah. If I were to drink coffee at work no one would care. But if my in-laws saw it it would be like dropping a nuclear bomb on the idea that we are good mormon people. It really is about the control aspect, and that if I am breaking that rule then I must be very lost, which in their view I am (if they knew, which they don't at DW's request). DW does also have some minor concerns about the health impacts of the insidious bean drink; she asked me if I'm addicted like it was meth.

Thank you for the clarification. In that case, since your DW has a social circle that is basically limited to TBM family and church members, then the sensitivity to coffee makes some sense. She simply is not around it enough to understand it and she doesn't see that it is something that is socially acceptable to the greater Utah community. Basically, she is never exposed to a more healthy attitude to coffee, so the extreme view she has is reinforced by the few people she knows.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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jfro18
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Re: Crap

Post by jfro18 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:16 pm

Linked wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:03 am
Yeah, I'm in Utah. If I were to drink coffee at work no one would care. But if my in-laws saw it it would be like dropping a nuclear bomb on the idea that we are good mormon people. It really is about the control aspect, and that if I am breaking that rule then I must be very lost, which in their view I am (if they knew, which they don't at DW's request). DW does also have some minor concerns about the health impacts of the insidious bean drink; she asked me if I'm addicted like it was meth.
This really hits me as well. I have been out of the church for years and I still haven't drank coffee because I know it really upset DW when her sister drank it... so it was like a warning shot to me years ago not to do it.

That said I drink a TON of diet coke, which is so much worse, so I think I need to start drinking coffee and other things to drop the diet pop. But I know that's going to make her feel really uncomfortable, and it wouldn't be easy to do it without her around.

We got a Keurig machine last year and at Christmas we took a photo of our kid holding the plate of cookies for Santa (he knows Santa isn't real but wanted to do it anyway). First response in in-law group chat was from my sis-in-law who said "Is that a Keurig machine?"

I mentioned to my wife how quick she noticed it and DW said "oh she's just really into kitchen gadgets." It's absolute BS, but again shows just how much pressure her family has been putting on her since I went down the rabbit hole and it's a horrible feelings.

So I get where you're at - I could drink coffee anywhere else and no one would care because it's... coffee. The in-laws have already written me off so I doubt they'd care, but they'd think me drinking coffee in front of our kid would be like introducing him to the gateway to hell.

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Linked
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Re: Crap

Post by Linked » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:13 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:04 pm
Thank you for the clarification. In that case, since your DW has a social circle that is basically limited to TBM family and church members, then the sensitivity to coffee makes some sense. She simply is not around it enough to understand it and she doesn't see that it is something that is socially acceptable to the greater Utah community. Basically, she is never exposed to a more healthy attitude to coffee, so the extreme view she has is reinforced by the few people she knows.
Yeah, that's pretty much it. The times that she has been exposed to coffee drinkers they were easy to "other". Just a note, even after years of being out seeing it stated as a "more healthy attitude" and "extreme view" seems weird, even though I agree. The mormonness is hard to shake!
jfro18 wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:16 pm
Linked wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:03 am
Yeah, I'm in Utah. If I were to drink coffee at work no one would care. But if my in-laws saw it it would be like dropping a nuclear bomb on the idea that we are good mormon people. It really is about the control aspect, and that if I am breaking that rule then I must be very lost, which in their view I am (if they knew, which they don't at DW's request). DW does also have some minor concerns about the health impacts of the insidious bean drink; she asked me if I'm addicted like it was meth.
This really hits me as well. I have been out of the church for years and I still haven't drank coffee because I know it really upset DW when her sister drank it... so it was like a warning shot to me years ago not to do it.

That said I drink a TON of diet coke, which is so much worse, so I think I need to start drinking coffee and other things to drop the diet pop. But I know that's going to make her feel really uncomfortable, and it wouldn't be easy to do it without her around.

We got a Keurig machine last year and at Christmas we took a photo of our kid holding the plate of cookies for Santa (he knows Santa isn't real but wanted to do it anyway). First response in in-law group chat was from my sis-in-law who said "Is that a Keurig machine?"

I mentioned to my wife how quick she noticed it and DW said "oh she's just really into kitchen gadgets." It's absolute BS, but again shows just how much pressure her family has been putting on her since I went down the rabbit hole and it's a horrible feelings.

So I get where you're at - I could drink coffee anywhere else and no one would care because it's... coffee. The in-laws have already written me off so I doubt they'd care, but they'd think me drinking coffee in front of our kid would be like introducing him to the gateway to hell.
Sounds like we are in similar boats. My DW is also really concerned about me leading our kids astray, and asked me not to have coffee in the house. That's no problem for me logistically, but I would like my kids to know the real me and not just the version that the mormon church approves of. I am particularly concerned that I will wait too long and when they discover the real me they will be converted already and judge me through the standard mormon lense, which would destroy our relationship. I'm also worried that waiting for too long will lead to my kids feeling lied to and betrayed by me. :|
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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glass shelf
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Re: Crap

Post by glass shelf » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:23 pm

Legit question-- do teachers in UT drink coffee at school? I guess a lot of the teachers are Mormon, so maybe that's not really part of the culture.

I mean, here in the non-morridor world, my kids' teachers largely love coffee. Their elementary music teacher loves it so much that she has massive amounts of coffee-themed decorations in her room and a huge Christmas tree full of coffee-themed ornaments that kids have given her over the years. So even if I were still a crazy Mormon, my kids have been exposed to kind, thoughtful people who both care about them and drink coffee on the regular. I had the same thing as a child between teachers and my dad's workmates. I never saw coffee drinking for non-Mormons as anything wrong, and I just knew that I was supposed to follow those rules because Mormon God said so.

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Linked
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Re: Crap

Post by Linked » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:08 pm

glass shelf wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:23 pm
Legit question-- do teachers in UT drink coffee at school? I guess a lot of the teachers are Mormon, so maybe that's not really part of the culture.

I mean, here in the non-morridor world, my kids' teachers largely love coffee. Their elementary music teacher loves it so much that she has massive amounts of coffee-themed decorations in her room and a huge Christmas tree full of coffee-themed ornaments that kids have given her over the years. So even if I were still a crazy Mormon, my kids have been exposed to kind, thoughtful people who both care about them and drink coffee on the regular. I had the same thing as a child between teachers and my dad's workmates. I never saw coffee drinking for non-Mormons as anything wrong, and I just knew that I was supposed to follow those rules because Mormon God said so.
25 years ago teachers in UT did NOT drink coffee at school, or at least not that I was aware of. Things may have changed since then, but my kids haven't mentioned it yet. What you describe in the non-morridor sounds like a good way to weaken some of the indoctrination, or at least prevent some of the less realistic ideas learned in mormon strongholds about coffee and other "sins".
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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wtfluff
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Re: Crap

Post by wtfluff » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:45 pm

glass shelf wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:23 pm
Legit question-- do teachers in UT drink coffee at school? I guess a lot of the teachers are Mormon, so maybe that's not really part of the culture.
I can't say what the general consensus as far as coffee drinking at school in UT would be, and my school-aged offspring wouldn't care or talk aboot it.

I do have a "ex-mo" friend who is a school teacher who is a bit reluctant to blatantly show "coffee drinking" at school for fear of repercussions from parents. Drinking of a beverage from an insulated, non-see-through container doesn't cause issues though, and I don't see "coffee breath" being too much of an issue with COVID and all. I'll try to remember to ask about "coffee in the break-room" at school if I remember.

By Golly, that last paragraph just sounds weird from a non-MORmON thinking perspective, doesn't it? (#NotaCult)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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glass shelf
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Re: Crap

Post by glass shelf » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:51 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:45 pm
glass shelf wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:23 pm
Legit question-- do teachers in UT drink coffee at school? I guess a lot of the teachers are Mormon, so maybe that's not really part of the culture.
I can't say what the general consensus as far as coffee drinking at school in UT would be, and my school-aged offspring wouldn't care or talk aboot it.

I do have a "ex-mo" friend who is a school teacher who is a bit reluctant to blatantly show "coffee drinking" at school for fear of repercussions from parents. Drinking of a beverage from an insulated, non-see-through container doesn't cause issues though, and I don't see "coffee breath" being too much of an issue with COVID and all. I'll try to remember to ask about "coffee in the break-room" at school if I remember.

By Golly, that last paragraph just sounds weird from a non-MORmON thinking perspective, doesn't it? (#NotaCult)
Yep, definitely does. Coffee is a social norm other places. My job has a large coffee bar area for staff and patients that is very popular.

I think that I did benefit from growing up outside of Morridor as far as being able to make a cleaner break.

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Emower
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Re: Crap

Post by Emower » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:01 pm

Hey Linked,

We are all just strangers here, most of the time by someone else's device.

I dont visit the board real often anymore, but when I saw your post with the subject line of "Crap" I thought "Crap." I'm real sorry for the situation you find yourself in. I feel the pain. It is ridiculous that bean water would be some sort of watershed moment in a relationship. But thats where we are, and like it or not it isn't surprising. I think we all hope that it wont be, then when it happens it is a real let-down and once again another confirmation that we are living in a cray-cray life.

I do want to +1 what Alas said. My experience points to this being the most important thing you could take out of this thread.
alas wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:12 pm
Don’t lie about the stupid stuff. I know, water under the bridge, but repent. Drinking coffee is the stupid stuff. Her being upset isn’t about the coffee, it is about trust. Can they trust you? Not if you do things behind their backs or lie about it. They won’t think you are honest about the big things if they catch you doing stuff behind their backs or lying about little stuff. So, if you want their trust, earn it. If you have screwed up, apologize and promise not to ever do that again. You want their trust, so earn it by being 100% honest about your journey. Don’t lie or go behind their back or you lose trust. It isn’t about the coffee, it is about trust. How many times should I repeat this?

Your spouse isn’t your mother and you aren’t a kid. Your spouse is your equal and your relationship isn’t about avoiding getting caught. Earn their trust and they will believe you when you say that the church doesn’t work for you, and you have studied and it still isn’t working for you. But if they can’t trust you, no wonder they think you are being evil about your attitude toward the church. Act like a wicked apostate and they will treat you like a wicked apostate. Act like you are honestly trying to be a good person, and they will have second thoughts on the wicked apostate stereotype.
It is not (probably) about the bean juice. It is about feeling safe. You hiding things makes her feel insecure and unsafe. She already felt unsafe with you having lost what is commonly viewed as your moral compass (belief in the church) and she is feeling really insecure. Finding out that you are sneaking stuff as well is only confirming that you are unsafe and an unknown quantity.

My wife and I at one point had to have a very vulnerable conversation about what made each of us not trust the other. We did not talk about divorce directly, but each of us knew that it was the ultimate result of distrust. I had to express to her that certain things she did made me feel like she chose the "brethren" over me, and that I did not trust that our relationship was built on something deeper than the church. She had to express that she couldn't trust that I was not going to keep asking her to give on things until one day she would wake up to regret how much she gave up, or that she would be constantly fighting me. We each had to give a little that night. It was a definitive positive shift for us.

Maybe you aren't willing to give on the coffee thing. Thats fine, but she needs to know where you are headed with it. Is coffee going to lead to Alcohol? Is it going to lead to Gummies? Is it going to lead to Meth? You may think that line of thinking is absurd, but frankly what you think does not matter if you are concerned with keeping things together, what matters is what makes her feel unsafe, and I am just going to go out on a limb when I say I doubt the safety issue is with coffee. Everything with Mormons is symbolic. She might need to know and trust you when you say how far you might go.

I dont know how you do it, but you gotta get some trust going. For me getting that trust was expressing what our worst fears were in the relationship, and promising to the other that we would not do that. Luckily for us, our worst fears were something each of us were willing to avoid for the other, in the way that the other person wanted it done. I would just come out and relate the whole situation, but its personal and I am not exactly anonymous here. But that is what I think the key is, honesty and willingness to give things up. If she is not willing to reciprocate, I dont know about that. That is out of my wheelhouse.

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