The word Mormon

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Atlanticmike
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The word Mormon

Post by Atlanticmike » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:34 am

So I've been studying church history the past 2 months. I guess you could say I'm going through a faith crisis. I don't do social media, infact the first real time I've actually opened an account to talk to people online would be on the md&d board. It's a great board but some questions I dont feel like I can ask, so that's why I joined you guys.
One of my biggest gripes about the church, or more particularly what pres. Nelson said a couple years ago, is that the word Mormon is considered a victory for satan when we use it instead of the correct name of the church. I've watched his talk over and over, and cant get past the fact that it seems like what he's saying is purely a business decision instead of a spiritual decision. In 1990 pres. Hinckley said the word Mormon means "more good" and the name can bring luster, honor and respect to the church. Two opposing views that make absolutely no sense to me. Personally, I dont want to be known as a Christian, xxxk that, if the church is true I feel like we stand up and proclaim its truth, and a word like "mormon " cant hurt the truth, just like Pres. Hinckley said. Anyways, thanks for reading this, would love to hear your opinion and if your interested in some of my views I have posted on the pro board over 500 times in the past 2 and a half months.

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Red Ryder
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:26 am

This one never really bothered me.

If you go back and look at some of the history related to the various organizations of the church over the years, there are many examples of organizational name changes. For example, the young women’s organization of today hasn’t changed much since the early Brigham Young days. The name has, but the organization values, doctrines, and moral judgement has not.
At first this is difficult for his daughters. These girls are some of the most popular girls in the territory, and they enjoy stylish things. Now they can’t spend hours looking at clothing catalogs from back East. Instead they must sew their own simple and modest dresses, without any ruffles, that go all the way to the ground. They must spend less time socializing and more time studying the scriptures and learning the gospel.

But these girls know their father is a prophet, and they choose to follow him. They created the Young Ladies Department of the Cooperative Retrenchment Association and begin meeting often to support each other in their efforts.
Perhaps you need to ask yourself why the name change bothers you? Did it bother you when Home Depot changed their logo in 1978? Or when Wal-Mart changed their slogan to “Save More, Live Better”? Perhaps you need to look deeply into your own life. Is there an unrepentant Sin you haven’t discussed with your bishop? Have you been diligent in reading your scriptures? Have you done your ministering assignment for the month? Have you been paying a full tithe? 😂

Seriously though, when you look at the history of the church, there’s many examples of program and policy changes. Is this a doctrinal change or a policy change? Which institutional pattern can you see develop over time?

Current Prophets have contradicted Past prophets. Past prophets have been white washed and their talks ellipsed. President Nelson has the right to receive modern day revelation and had played the Draw Four here. Oaks will probably do similar policy adjustments when it’s his turn.

The litmus test falls on your belief that President Hinckley and Nelson are prophets of God.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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nibbler
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by nibbler » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:52 am

Here's GBH's talk from the October 1990 general conference:
Mormon Should Mean “More Good”

Here's a link to the page in the Times and Seasons that GBH is citing:
Times and Seasons vol. 4 p194

Authorship is debated, some say Joseph Smith and some W. W. Phelps. Authorship doesn't seem to matter, it establishes the word Mormon wasn't a pejorative as early as 1843.

But I don't think that was Nelson's point. I think his only point was that the nickname Mormon church undermines the fact (at least to him) that it is Christ's church. Maybe to him it's a trick by Satan to misrepresent the church; maybe that with a mixture of ensuring the general public understands the church is Christian (an attempt to be more mainstream).

I want to quote Nelson because he said more than just the infamous victory for Satan bit.
RMN wrote:What’s in a name or, in this case, a nickname? When it comes to nicknames of the Church, such as the “LDS Church,” the “Mormon Church,” or the “Church of the Latter-day Saints,” the most important thing in those names is the absence of the Savior’s name. To remove the Lord’s name from the Lord’s Church is a major victory for Satan. When we discard the Savior’s name, we are subtly disregarding all that Jesus Christ did for us—even His Atonement.
Not just a victory, a major victory and using nicknames that don't include Christ also disregards the atonement.

The label Mormon is RMN's hobby horse. I get his point but I think he employs way too much hyperbole to make it.
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wtfluff
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by wtfluff » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:55 am

I'm too lazy to do the research, but if you go back a bit before Hinkley's "More Good" speech, you'll find another speech by Nelson where he talks about how awful the word mormon is.

Hinckley's speech was a bit like a playground argument where HInckley showed Nelson that Hinckley was higher on the pecking order, so Nelson was wrong. Essentially Hinckley's priesthood power could "beat up" Nelson's priesthood power.

Then both Hinckley and Monson went on to spend millions if not billions of dollars advertising the word "Mormon."

To me, Nelson's "new" commandment about not using the word mormon is a really bad business decision after all the previous advertising campaigns. "Mormon=Bad" was Nelson's "Pet Peeve" in the past, but he got shot down by his "superiors," then he waited for his "superiors" to die off, and he brought it back into play because he was now the CEO, and no-one could question him.
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oliblish
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by oliblish » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:21 am

nibbler wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:52 am
Here's GBH's talk from the October 1990 general conference:
Mormon Should Mean “More Good”

Here's a link to the page in the Times and Seasons that GBH is citing:
Times and Seasons vol. 4 p194

Authorship is debated, some say Joseph Smith and some W. W. Phelps. Authorship doesn't seem to matter, it establishes the word Mormon wasn't a pejorative as early as 1843.

But I don't think that was Nelson's point. I think his only point was that the nickname Mormon church undermines the fact (at least to him) that it is Christ's church. Maybe to him it's a trick by Satan to misrepresent the church; maybe that with a mixture of ensuring the general public understands the church is Christian (an attempt to be more mainstream).

I want to quote Nelson because he said more than just the infamous victory for Satan bit.
RMN wrote:What’s in a name or, in this case, a nickname? When it comes to nicknames of the Church, such as the “LDS Church,” the “Mormon Church,” or the “Church of the Latter-day Saints,” the most important thing in those names is the absence of the Savior’s name. To remove the Lord’s name from the Lord’s Church is a major victory for Satan. When we discard the Savior’s name, we are subtly disregarding all that Jesus Christ did for us—even His Atonement.
Not just a victory, a major victory and using nicknames that don't include Christ also disregards the atonement.

The label Mormon is RMN's hobby horse. I get his point but I think he employs way too much hyperbole to make it.
Kind of interesting that he mentions "Church of the Latter Day Saints" as a problem. That was the official name of the church back in the early to mid 1830's. That name is still on the Kirtland Temple.

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moksha
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by moksha » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:06 am

Although the interpretation of the name Mormon is not given in the Book of Mormon, it is known from a letter sent by Joseph Smith to the editor of Times and Seasons on May 20, 1843. The prophet was correcting an error among "men that profess to be learned, liberal and wise" who said the name was derived from the Greek mormo.

"This is not the case," he wrote. "There was no Greek or Latin upon the plates from which I, through the grace of the Lord, translated the Book of Mormon." The word Mormon means literally, more good."

https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/ ... ood-152390
-----------

If Elder Clarence W. Schmo had declared that the word Mormon was a victory for satan, you would suspect Elder Schmo had gone off the deep end.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Just This Guy
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:04 pm

First off, AtlanticMike, welcome to the board! Please enjoy your stay. Hope you find your time here enjoyable and enlightening.

Others have talked about the name change and how it was handled, I would guess that the problem for the OP is more about what this says about the nature of god and the devil. That may be where it is more distressing.

In 1990, the prophet of god states while presumably speaking for god and states clearly that the will of god is that it is acceptable before him to use the name Mormon as a shorthand for the LDS church. A mere 16 years later, another prophet of god states while presumably speaking for god and states clearly that the will of god is that the use of the name Mormon as shorthand for the name of the LDS church is an affront before him of the highest order.

Lets assume for this discussion that these men are infant speaking the will and mind of god. What does this mean for god? Is god the same yesterday, today, and forever? Nope. This would mean at one point, god encouraged something that would later be a sin. This god changed his mind and quite drastically. Consider the implications of this. I thought god could not abide sin? Nope, I guess he can. This means that god is not an unchangeable god, but is very much a changeable god.

Why is that important?

“For God doth not walk in crooked paths, neither doth he turn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round.” (D&C 3:2)

“And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God;...” (Mormon 9:27-28)


There are all sorts of questions that can come as you think about the implication of this more and more.

If God changes his mind over something as simple as the use of a word, what else has he changed his mind over?
How are we supposed to trust that someone that we currently is okay will not become a sin in a few years?
Since he is shown to be changeable, therefore he is no longer god, why even worship him?
Have there been other changes to the will of god that you are not aware of and are now sinning in ignorance?
Long long was the LDS church living in sin?
How is a person supposed to be able to follow the commandments if they are unable to tell what when something will suddenly change? And what if they don't get the memo about the commandment update?

It's a pretty scary position to be in when you think about it.
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Linked
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by Linked » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:22 pm

Atlanticmike wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:34 am
One of my biggest gripes about the church, or more particularly what pres. Nelson said a couple years ago, is that the word Mormon is considered a victory for satan when we use it instead of the correct name of the church. I've watched his talk over and over, and cant get past the fact that it seems like what he's saying is purely a business decision instead of a spiritual decision. In 1990 pres. Hinckley said the word Mormon means "more good" and the name can bring luster, honor and respect to the church. Two opposing views that make absolutely no sense to me.
I think more than a business decision this was a pet peeve that RMN finally had the power to rant about. As someone else mentioned, Hinckley's talk about Mormon meaning "more good" was a direct response to RMN giving a talk denouncing the use of the word Mormon in the previous conference. While Hinckley and Monson were in charge Mormon was fine, but once RMN became the top dog suddenly God agrees with his personal pet peeve.

Definitely fishy either way.
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Palerider
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by Palerider » Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:48 pm

Linked wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:22 pm

I think more than a business decision this was a pet peeve that RMN finally had the power to rant about..........While Hinckley and Monson were in charge Mormon was fine, but once RMN became the top dog suddenly God agrees with his personal pet peeve.

Definitely fishy either way.
I would agree with this.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Palerider
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by Palerider » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:04 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:04 pm

If God changes his mind over something as simple as the use of a word, what else has he changed his mind over?
How are we supposed to trust that someone that we currently is okay will not become a sin in a few years?
Since he is shown to be changeable, therefore he is no longer god, why even worship him?
Have there been other changes to the will of god that you are not aware of and are now sinning in ignorance?
Long long was the LDS church living in sin?
How is a person supposed to be able to follow the commandments if they are unable to tell what when something will suddenly change? And what if they don't get the memo about the commandment update?

It's a pretty scary position to be in when you think about it.

In a thinly veiled way Nelson's talk attempts to absolve Hinkley and others by saying that they did these things "inadvertently" and "unintentionally" I think was the other word he used.

It's a half hearted effort to say they were NOT speaking for the Lord without naming names or pointing fingers. He then covers his final base by stating:

"One by one, our best efforts as individuals will be required to correct errors that have crept in through the years."

Which is another way of saying that he and the rest of the church are now responsible to clean up the mess left behind by those who shall not be named.

He can do this with the confidence that the church and it's leadership, although they may have displeased the Lord, are still intact because we have been promised that the prophets will not lead us astray and that if we are obedient, the Lord will bless us even if the prophet was wrong.

Problem solved!!! 🤪

So everyone just sit down...shut up....do as your told...and have another cookie. 🍪
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

Tacenda
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by Tacenda » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:46 pm

Hi Mike, I was on NOM years ago, and then I got hooked on MDDB. Just wanted to say hi, and hope you feel the love from this board. It's a good one! :D

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2bizE
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by 2bizE » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:31 pm

Atlanticmike wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:34 am
So I've been studying church history the past 2 months. I guess you could say I'm going through a faith crisis. I don't do social media, infact the first real time I've actually opened an account to talk to people online would be on the md&d board. It's a great board but some questions I dont feel like I can ask, so that's why I joined you guys.
One of my biggest gripes about the church, or more particularly what pres. Nelson said a couple years ago, is that the word Mormon is considered a victory for satan when we use it instead of the correct name of the church. I've watched his talk over and over, and cant get past the fact that it seems like what he's saying is purely a business decision instead of a spiritual decision. In 1990 pres. Hinckley said the word Mormon means "more good" and the name can bring luster, honor and respect to the church. Two opposing views that make absolutely no sense to me. Personally, I dont want to be known as a Christian, xxxk that, if the church is true I feel like we stand up and proclaim its truth, and a word like "mormon " cant hurt the truth, just like Pres. Hinckley said. Anyways, thanks for reading this, would love to hear your opinion and if your interested in some of my views I have posted on the pro board over 500 times in the past 2 and a half months.
I’m glad you came over to our group and posted some wonderful thoughts. I enjoy posting at MDD because I get attacked like flies on a cow pie with every thoughts I post.
I understand your concern with the word Mormon and have similar feelings. For 34 years, RMN has disliked the word Mormon. He has spoken about it a few times and was rebuked a bit for it by Hinkley I believe. So upon rising to power, as his wife stated that he had been waiting for a long time to make a bunch of changes. Changing how members call themselves Mormon was just one of the changes. The whole bit about Mormon being a spawn of Satan was a bit of drama. I have not yet changed calling Mormons, Mormons. I was born Mormon and will continue to use that word. I do call those who choose not to use the word Mormon anti-Mormons. It’s unfortunate that RMN has turned the church against itself in this way. After he and Oaks die, I think the craziness will die down a bit...until Bednar takes over, then a new level of craziness will start. Don’t put too much thought into this change to anti-Mormonism, it will blow by soon enough. I can tell you most people in this group don’t really put much thought into the Alpha male banging his chest for everyone to hear and see....
~2bizE

Atlanticmike
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by Atlanticmike » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:16 am

Thanks to everyone for responding. To be honest, I dont know why this name "correction" bothers me so much. But, I almost feel like its taking part of my identity away, maybe that's it, who knows. Between the time of Hinckley's and Nelson's talk there was the I am a mormon campaign and the meet the mormons movie. The word mormon was chosen to build up our church for those years! So now using the word mormon is a major victory for satan?? Makes no sense. It wouldn't of bothered me so much if Nelson would've stood at the podium and said, look, we're going to put more emphasis on the correct name of the church going forward. The PR department has been told to come up with new material that concentrates on the correct name of the church. I could of understood and gone along with that. But, to say the change was the command of the lord is basically throwing every other leader who told us the word mormon was beneficial to our image, under the bus. And, isn't he saying that the men before him were highly influenced by satan? If satan can influence a prophet/prophets to spend millions to make a movie and a campaign that concentrates on the word MORMON, what else can he persuade God's mouthpiece to change? Thank you for letting me vent :D.

And hi tacenda, nice to see you here also!

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nibbler
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by nibbler » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:07 am

There are several angles to work. :)

Set the stage. It's October 2018, Jesus has his mouthpiece primed and ready to give a speech. The faithful are attentive and poised to receive the word of god. What will this important message be?

Stop saying Mormon. The message isn't to dust off food storage teachings to give people some lead time to prep for a pandemic. The message isn't a voice of warning that many saints are headed down anti-Christian paths with their political leanings. No, the message is stop saying Mormon.

The message was also delivered in such a way that the more immediate fruits of the talk weren't calls to refocus the culture on Jesus, the more immediate fruits were adding another bylaw for ward busybodies to police.
Atlanticmike wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:16 am
It wouldn't of bothered me so much if Nelson would've stood at the podium and said, look, we're going to put more emphasis on the correct name of the church going forward. The PR department has been told to come up with new material that concentrates on the correct name of the church. I could of understood and gone along with that. But, to say the change was the command of the lord is basically throwing every other leader who told us the word mormon was beneficial to our image, under the bus.
There's this as well. I agree, treat members like adults and tell them the real reason for things. "Look guys, we've strayed a bit and we want the culture to be more focused on Jesus. We're going to be making some changes in coming months to help us remember that Jesus is at the heart of everything we do."

Instead we invoke the name of god, claim every small policy change is the result of direct revelation, and even evoke "the adversary" to scare people into adopting the change. It's a passive-aggressive approach to enacting change. "Look guys, it's not me saying it, it's god." When the truth of the matter is that in most cases a simple, "Because I want to make this change." would have been far more honest and less insulting to people's intelligence.
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

Cnsl1
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by Cnsl1 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:27 am

But, has the "anti Mormon" campaign really caught on? It seems like I hear the word "Mormon" used in local church and national media about as often as before.

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Re: The word Mormon

Post by Cnsl1 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:02 am

Lenny "Little Lucifer" Didn't Keep His 1st Estate Devil: "Boss, we got Brother Brown to start looking at porn at work again, cheat on his taxes, and take the long way home past the strip joint. I'm sure if we keep up the pressure, he'll be smoking crack and pimping babies by the end of the year. You SURE you want me to ease up on him?"

The Great Satan Himself: "Get with the program, Lenny! I told you we need all devils full time keeping 'Mormon' in the minds and mouths of everyone. We're looking at a possible major victory here!"

Lenny: "Yessir, boss. Hey, what about 'Marmin', does that still count?"

Satan: "Naw, don't worry about them old farts. All the Marmins have died and gone to hell already."

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Re: The word Mormon

Post by græy » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:12 am

nibbler wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:52 am
I want to quote Nelson because he said more than just the infamous victory for Satan bit.
RMN wrote:What’s in a name or, in this case, a nickname? When it comes to nicknames of the Church, such as the “LDS Church,” the “Mormon Church,” or the “Church of the Latter-day Saints,” the most important thing in those names is the absence of the Savior’s name. To remove the Lord’s name from the Lord’s Church is a major victory for Satan. When we discard the Savior’s name, we are subtly disregarding all that Jesus Christ did for us—even His Atonement.
Not just a victory, a major victory and using nicknames that don't include Christ also disregards the atonement.

The label Mormon is RMN's hobby horse. I get his point but I think he employs way too much hyperbole to make it.
I agree that RMN has had it in for the word Mormon for decades. I also agree that this whole thing is little more than corporate rebranding.

That said, I have to push back against the generally accepted idea that RMN is saying the word "Mormon" is a "major victory for Satan." The way I understood his message is that removing Jesus Christ from the name is a victory for Satan. To him (it seems) it does not matter if you call us Latter-day Saints, LDS people, or Mormons. Those are are Satanic victories because you're not including Jesus Christ in that label.

"Mormon" may still mean "more good." But if you don't let people know we're Christian, you're inadvertently spreading the misinformation that LDS people are not Christian and thereby creating victories for Satan.
Atlanticmike wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:34 am
if the church is true I feel like we stand up and proclaim its truth, and a word like "mormon " cant hurt the truth, just like Pres. Hinckley said.
I feel like this is also true. This church and it's "true" doctrine and prophets should be able to stand on their own regardless of what the rest of the world thinks of them (Christian or not) or calls them (TCoJCoLDS or Mormon).

What really irks me, personally, are all the people who get riled up because someone used the word Mormon and then they feel it is their responsibility to correct that person. You can take 2 1/2 minutes to say the full name of the church if you want to, I've got better things to do with my time than try to spread propaganda that one single old man in a 200 year-old organization thinks is important.
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Red Ryder
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:44 am

2bizE wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:31 pm
I’m glad you came over to our group and posted some wonderful thoughts. I enjoy posting at MDD because I get attacked like flies on a cow pie with every thoughts I post.
I lurk over there and get a kick out of this. It’s pretty funny 2biz
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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moksha
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by moksha » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:23 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:27 am
It seems like I hear the word "Mormon" used in the local church and national media about as often as before.
A good alternative name was never suggested by the Church.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: The word Mormon

Post by annotatedbom » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:01 pm

Hey Atlanticmike, welcome to NOM. It's a great place because of the folks here. I hope you enjoy your time here.

Like you and others have pointed out, the name change is a huge problem in consistency. If the Church were really being led by an all-knowing, all-powerful God, why all the flip-flopping?

I posted about this here, but as I recall, the only thing that post adds to your thread is that there was an entire multi-million dollar, international media PR campaign to promote the Church not that many years ago called "I'm a Mormon." Kind of odd that God would allow them to waste the widow's mite to promote a colossal victory for Stan. It's almost as if the Church has no special connection with God.

And you mentioned this whole move to get away from using the term "Mormon" kind of feels like it's taking a part of your identity away. That makes sense. I think we were taught to identify with it in a positive way. It sounds like you might be mourning what the Church used to mean to you. If that's right, I'm sorry you're going through that. It can be sad and lonely to let go of what you thought the Church or the general leaders of the Church were.

Peace to you amigo,
A-BoM

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