NOM

Tired of trying to convince my wife that the church is all B.S. she sticks her head in the sand!! It's been 6 years and still no progress !! I could use some encouragement.

I encourage you to stop trying.

Mackman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:25 am Tired of trying to convince my wife that the church is all B.S. she sticks her head in the sand!! It's been 6 years and still no progress !! I could use some encouragement.

There is nothing you can possibly do to change her mind until she is open and ready for it. I've learned that the hard way, although it's only been 3 years for me so I can only imagine how deflating it will be at six years.

My wife asked me to put together "everything I have that proves the church is not true" and I am slowly doing that, but I have zero expectations that she will look at it because she is not in a place where she can even entertain it.

I don't really have any encouragement beyond trying to find your own identity and place within it, and I say that as someone who is struggling to do it because I am impacted by the church every day even though I don't attend.

It sucks... mixed faith marriages are incredibly difficult and it's only compounded when you can't even talk about the problems. The church puts up a wall for mixed faith marriages and keep telling the believing spouse on the other side how terrifying it is to go to that other side, and until they are willing to take that step to you, there's really nothing you can do that's going to break it down.

I know that's not helpful, but I've learned from those on this board and talking to others that we are just not wired to change our beliefs based on what someone else tells us - it has to be something that 'snaps' from within that opens you up to being willing to assess the info yourself.

My first response was “stop trying...”

Then I read Rueben and jfro said the same thing.

I’m probably just as tired as you Mackman and it’s been 15 years of apostasy for me. The elephant in the room continues to drop turds every now and then. You learn to ignore it, but the smell never really goes away. We had a disagreement just this morning about church.

My best advice is stop trying and spend your energy doing the things that make you happy. When I find this groove, life is better for me and I become happier and less focused on the church wedge in our marriage. Well, at least until the next church turd drops.

I'm exhausted with you Mackman. Mixed faith marriages are hard. But better than the alternative in many cases. Hang in there!

Mackman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:25 am Tired of trying to convince my wife that the church is all B.S. she sticks her head in the sand!! It's been 6 years and still no progress !! I could use some encouragement.

Do you mind me asking why you're trying to convince her it's B.S.? Do you envision a happier life if both of you are out?

I have studied Mormonism for many years I have been a member since 1981 with a brief hiatus of 18months. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt it is total Bullshit !!!

Mackman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:16 pm I have studied Mormonism for many years I have been a member since 1981 with a brief hiatus of 18months. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt it is total Bullshit !!!

And?

i mean, I disagree with my husband on 90% of politics, I think. I ignore it and move on with life. She is allowed to believe differently than you. You've changed your mind since your relationship began, and that's okay.

At some point in relationships, you honestly have to agree to disagree.

It would be nice to agree to disagree but she wants me to give up and shut up and give in and attend etc etc etc

What does a compromise look like Mac?

From her perspective?

From your perspective?

glass shelf wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:21 pm

Mackman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:16 pm I have studied Mormonism for many years I have been a member since 1981 with a brief hiatus of 18months. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt it is total Bullshit !!!

And?

i mean, I disagree with my husband on 90% of politics, I think. I ignore it and move on with life. She is allowed to believe differently than you. You've changed your mind since your relationship began, and that's okay.

At some point in relationships, you honestly have to agree to disagree.

If a married couple simply agreed to disagree and then each one let the other alone to "do your own thing" when it came to religious beliefs, then that would be fine. But that's not what happens in many cases.
What happens is that the believing spouse is constantly pressuring the non-believer to act like a believer : i.e., participate in scripture study, conduct FHE, accept a calling, do home teaching, attend every Sunday, read the BOM, listen to conference talks,teach primary, and hundreds of other make-busy activities that the church requires of its members.
The non-believer is cast as the outlier, the other, the apostate; and so forth. The project of the believing spouse is to work on re-activating the non-believer, the bad person. So the proselytizing and psychological pressure is non-stop. - Wndr.

Atlanticmike wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:34 pm

Mackman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:25 am Tired of trying to convince my wife that the church is all B.S. she sticks her head in the sand!! It's been 6 years and still no progress !! I could use some encouragement.

Do you mind me asking why you're trying to convince her it's B.S.? Do you envision a happier life if both of you are out?

This is a great question AM.

I can’t seem to come to terms with convincing my wife the church may not be what it claims. I don’t want to be the root cause of her testimony crumbling. I think it’s deeply personal and something I just don’t want to be responsible for. Sacred cows are sacred cows. I’m not letting them out of the pasture. She’ll have to leaver the gate open herself.

I hate myself for thinking this way because I fantasize about a marriage where Mormonism doesn’t come between us but it’s deeply engrained into my psych to not knock her out of mormon orbit. I’ll prod and make mild enough comments for her to connect the dots but she just doesn’t seem capable to do it. The church is an emotional connection for her. She doesn’t cate about doctrinal or historical stuff. The present day church makes her feel good. So she belongs.

Mackman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:16 pm I have studied Mormonism for many years I have been a member since 1981 with a brief hiatus of 18months. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt it is total Bullshit !!!

You want to talk about this? I'd like to talk to you about it. If not that's ok. I hope you find some peace and comfort, hang in there.

Thanks to jfro18 I think that's the best advice ! Just this morning I read 3 BOM scriptures that are racist and she just blew it off! You just can't change someone's mind until they are ready to hear it.

It requires an enormous amount of maturity and open-mindedness to accept that your spouse has changed their beliefs to something that no longer parallels your own, and even more to support them in it. But it is possible. My amazing wife has come to a place where we seem to be able to give each other all the room we need and to accept and support each other's position. Sure, there is always some compromise and times when you (both) have to do things you wouldn't choose to do if you were coming at it from a purely selfish perspective. BUT there really is a silver lining and it is possible to find that place and still have a strong marriage.

The biggest wrench in the cogs is that the church choses to play the role of that little devil sitting on the believer's shoulder trying to ruin everything for them.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:58 pm It requires an enormous amount of maturity and open-mindedness to accept that your spouse has changed their beliefs to something that no longer parallels your own, and even more to support them in it. But it is possible. My amazing wife has come to a place where we seem to be able to give each other all the room we need and to accept and support each other's position. Sure, there is always some compromise and times when you (both) have to do things you wouldn't choose to do if you were coming at it from a purely selfish perspective. BUT there really is a silver lining and it is possible to find that place and still have a strong marriage.

The biggest wrench in the cogs is that the church choses to play the role of that little devil sitting on the believer's shoulder trying to ruin everything for them.

Lots of wonderful thoughts here. I think I have learned there are reasons my wife believes, and they don't have to do with factual reality, they have to do with a 'feeling' reality, which may be a contradiction, but it sure doesn't feel, look, smell, or sound like a contradiction-- especially to her. For myself, I remember even Socrates said "he only knew that he knew nothing." History tells us Socrates had marital challenges as well. One thing I appreciate about my wife is she has never tried to convert me back to the Church. In this course she has shown more wisdom than me. Maybe I can be as wise as she is one day. It does help that she has beautiful brown eyes.

The great Joseph Smith trap (and lie).

1. Through our ordinances, we are the only way you can have your children in Heaven with you.

2. Anyone who tells you differently is inspired by Satan and EVIL!!!


Most (not all) Mormon women are particularly susceptible to this entrapment. If there's even a chance that they can keep their kids forever it's worth turning a blind eye to any inconsistency, any indiscretion, any doctrinal nonsense.

Many Mormon men are in the same boat.

I just want to chime in and blame you all for jinxing me - DW last night told me she wants our kid back in church once COVID restrictions are removed, which will be soon.

It had been calm for a while, but it's back now to navigating how to give him both perspectives without confusing him.

She asked about why I believe Joseph Smith wrote the BoM... I got a few examples in and that was shut down. It's been a long time since we've talked church, so it was just like having a flood of stress rush back into me.

Anyway - it's everyone on this thread's fault for jinxing it... I don't believe in the church, but I do believe jinxes can be sent by those who leave it.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:48 am I just want to chime in and blame you all for jinxing me - DW last night told me she wants our kid back in church once COVID restrictions are removed, which will be soon.

It had been calm for a while, but it's back now to navigating how to give him both perspectives without confusing him.

She asked about why I believe Joseph Smith wrote the BoM... I got a few examples in and that was shut down. It's been a long time since we've talked church, so it was just like having a flood of stress rush back into me.

Anyway - it's everyone on this thread's fault for jinxing it... I don't believe in the church, but I do believe jinxes can be sent by those who leave it.

The answer about how to give him both perspectives without confusing him is simple. “Mom believes X,Y, & Z. Dad believes A,B, &C.” If you keep it as *belief*, rather than insisting that either belief is *fact* and one is true, while nothing else can be, then kids catch on really quickly that grandparents believe like Mom, this other neighbor believes D,E, & F, while his friend at school believes H,J, &K. Then they can sort out what makes sense and feels right to them, without having to reject one parent for being wrong and evil or duped and foolish. It is only when both parents insist they are correct and the other parent is wrong, that kids are confused. Understanding that people can have different opinions, likes, and even religious beliefs is automatic for kids when the parents accept that people can like different things, think different things, and believe different things without making anybody bad.

alas wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:39 am The answer about how to give him both perspectives without confusing him is simple. “Mom believes X,Y, & Z. Dad believes A,B, &C.” If you keep it as *belief*, rather than insisting that either belief is *fact* and one is true, while nothing else can be, then kids catch on really quickly that grandparents believe like Mom, this other neighbor believes D,E, & F, while his friend at school believes H,J, &K.

I get that part - we've always framed everything as "I believe X,Y,Z because of A,B,C" without going into fact checking and we've never once (at least I haven't and I trust she hasn't) compared our beliefs to him in a way that sets one up as right, one up as wrong. Where we're struggling is that my opinion is that if our kid is taught a lesson in church that I'd like to explain where I'm coming from, which is really difficult because it will come off as deconstructing what he was just taught.

On the flip side, if I never say anything, then those lessons because fact just as a few years ago when he came in and told me that he couldn't wait to go to the temple and that "who can share the Book of Mormon? We can!"

I just want to have a role in how he's taught, but I feel like the equation is setup that any role I have will be really jarring because it would only come after he's been told the church's stance.

I don't want my kid to be like me, finding out years later and having those feelings of shock and betrayal. I also don't want my kid to be like DW,who has stated that there is not a single thing anyone could ever say or show her that would convince her, which is of course her right and prerogative, but I don't want to set my kid down that path.

And I know this is far from unique to people going through this... I just want to have a role in this and I feel like the only way that happens is to be the person who is like Wreck-It Ralph just going in and destroying what was built, which is an impossible task.