Forced Turning Point

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Cnsl1
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Cnsl1 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:31 pm

When I was a priest until I left on my mission, our bishop was a humble guy who insisted the young men not pass him the sacrament first. If there was ever a visiting stake leader, he wanted the deacons to be sure and pass to them first, but never to the bishop first. He wanted them to just offer the sacrament to the first person they got to on the stand, which was sometimes a priest sitting at the sacrament table. It was weird taking the sac before the bishop, but only for a little while and then pretty soon no one thought much about it.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:10 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:31 pm
When I was a priest until I left on my mission, our bishop was a humble guy who insisted the young men not pass him the sacrament first. If there was ever a visiting stake leader, he wanted the deacons to be sure and pass to them first, but never to the bishop first. He wanted them to just offer the sacrament to the first person they got to on the stand, which was sometimes a priest sitting at the sacrament table. It was weird taking the sac before the bishop, but only for a little while and then pretty soon no one thought much about it.
We were taught to stand there and wait at the sacrament table while the first deacon would get his tray, walk up on the stand, and serve the Bishop first. Once he took the sacrament then the priests would hand trays to the remaining deacons who would start their routes.

I thought that was standard procedure until we moved and the new ward didn’t do that.

Turns out the bishop in our old ward just had a really big ego.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Advocate
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Advocate » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:29 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:10 pm
Cnsl1 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:31 pm
When I was a priest until I left on my mission, our bishop was a humble guy who insisted the young men not pass him the sacrament first. If there was ever a visiting stake leader, he wanted the deacons to be sure and pass to them first, but never to the bishop first. He wanted them to just offer the sacrament to the first person they got to on the stand, which was sometimes a priest sitting at the sacrament table. It was weird taking the sac before the bishop, but only for a little while and then pretty soon no one thought much about it.
We were taught to stand there and wait at the sacrament table while the first deacon would get his tray, walk up on the stand, and serve the Bishop first. Once he took the sacrament then the priests would hand trays to the remaining deacons who would start their routes.

I thought that was standard procedure until we moved and the new ward didn’t do that.

Turns out the bishop in our old ward just had a really big ego.
Funny enough we just had this question come up in our bishopric meeting last Sunday. Believe it or not, the handbook says the presiding officer receives the bread and water first (Section 18.9.4). No idea why it needs to be that way, but it's in there.

Keewon
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Keewon » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:50 pm

One of my more successful experiences with an uncomfortable interview was when the EQP asked to speak with me, clearly about my decreasing level of activity in the church. Once we started I took over the conversation, asked him about his work, found it interesting enough to dig deeper, asked question after question, and - bingo!- in no time an hour had gone by without my having to answer any of his questions. And I came away knowing a lot more about him and actually feeling much more comfortable with him. He's a good guy and wasn't looking forward to this kind of conversation any more than I was.

As the good book says, "the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light". Your mileage may vary.

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Palerider
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Palerider » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:51 am

Advocate wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:29 am
Believe it or not, the handbook says the presiding officer receives the bread and water first (Section 18.9.4). No idea why it needs to be that way, but it's in there.
Oh, I'd believe it.

This is exactly what the Jews and Pharisees did over the millennia. The codification of the law. "They teach for doctrine the commandments of men."

The Sabbath starts precisely at sunset. You can only walk so many steps on the Sabbath. You have to pay tithes on your mint and herbs. You can only have one peirced earring in each ear.

The blind leading the blind and they're both falling in the ditch.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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A New Name
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by A New Name » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:54 am

græy wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:09 pm
I'm really not big on titles. I'll have to work hard at getting people to drop the bishop thing.
The hardest part for me was calling somebody and then introducing myself a "Bishop New Name"

Repeat after me" Hello Sister Smith, this is Bishop Graey calling, is your husband home?"

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græy
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by græy » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:02 am

A New Name wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:54 am
græy wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:09 pm
I'm really not big on titles. I'll have to work hard at getting people to drop the bishop thing.
The hardest part for me was calling somebody and then introducing myself a "Bishop New Name"
I don't know if you eventually get used to it, but whenever my DW says "bishop" my stomach knots up.
A New Name wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:27 pm
If you'd like to talk more, PM me with your e-mail address.
I had meant to respond to this earlier. Thank you for your particular insight and offer to help. I may very well take you up on that. How long ago were you a bishop?
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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A New Name
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by A New Name » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:04 am

Advocate wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:29 am

Funny enough we just had this question come up in our bishopric meeting last Sunday. Believe it or not, the handbook says the presiding officer receives the bread and water first (Section 18.9.4). No idea why it needs to be that way, but it's in there.
The reason is that the presiding officer makes sure the prayer is said right. The thinking is that if he gets it first, he has put his stamp of approval on the prayer. If not, some over active deacon could take the tray and give the bread to Sister Smith on the front row before the old bishop could get out of his seat top tell them to do the prayer over again.

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A New Name
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by A New Name » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:06 am

Bishop Graey, I was a bishop from 2001 to 2006. I just PM'd you my e-mail address

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beetbox
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by beetbox » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:48 pm

Graey, I heard about this thread yesterday when I was at lunch with some local NOMs, and I wanted to post my support to you in this very difficult decision that you have wrestled with. From everything I've read, you sound like a genuine human being who wants to do right in the world. I commend you for that. But I wanted to at least be a an alternate voice from the majority of what I've read so far. Take anything I say with the proverbial grain of salt.

I fear that this is not going to work out well for you to serve as a bishop. The emotional conflict inside you that you have already described tells you that something is not right. Consider listening to that voice that tells you, "what the f*** are you doing?! This is crazy."

You still have time to walk away and turn down the calling. Will it be embarrassing? Yes. Will you let people down? Yes. But for your sanity, please consider ripping the band-aid off and being honest with your wife, family, etc. about where you are. The acute discomfort you feel now after telling people you changed your mind will be much easier to bear than the week-in, week-out mental and emotional conflict you will deal with as a serving bishop. It's simply not worth it.

Life is too short to waste your time on things that bring you down. Rip that band-aid off, deal with the temporary fallout, and then revel in the clarity and peace of mind that comes with living an authentic life. You can do it!!

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fetchface
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by fetchface » Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:35 pm

I have a hard time imagining, as an unbeliever, being a bishop. When I lost my faith, one of the first feelings that washed over me was a profound sense of relief that I would never have to be a bishop.

So beetbox's words ring true to me. All I can think is that you and I must be pretty different for you to be even considering this, graey.

Keep in mind that the church doesn't really care about it's bishops. It chews them up and spits them out. The bishop I served under when I was EQP divorced soon after he was released. The church will ask, ask, ask , give nothing in return, and demand that you thank it.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/

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slk
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by slk » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:45 pm

I know some PIMO bishops think they can make a difference but mental gymnastics for five years just doesn't seem worth it. It's a nice thought knowing that there's some of these bishops out there but the only real change would have to come from the Q15. Bishops are low on the totem pole when it comes to making real changes that stick. Sometimes I wish enough Bishops like entire stakes, would rally together for change. Maybe that's when SLC would pull there heads out.

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Palerider
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Palerider » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:31 pm

græy wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:17 pm
Thanks Hagoth, dogbite, and Palerider.

I'm not really concerned about actually getting called as bishop. As I said, I haven't paid tithing in a long time now. There are at least 4 or 5 other guys who are just as capable and much more faithful (i.e. - they definitely pay their tithing).

What I am concerned about is that once that fact is revealed, I will be released and labeled as "unworthy" to participate in my kids coming-of-age rituals.

I really just want to quietly go through the motions while teaching my children that the're not crazy for recognizing a total lack of BoM evidence as problematic, that it was never okay for Joseph to lie to Emma and the world about how he manipulated and pressured young girls into marrying him, and that modern prophets have no more revelation than our neighbor Jim who is one of the nicest athiests you'll ever meet. I will also take them on service projects with me and teach them that it feels good to help those who are in need.

I would prefer to do all of those things without the church whispering in their ears that I am fallen, lost, damned, or a son of perdition. But I guess in the end, I can't play their game if I don't want to play by their rules. It just really sucks that my family still wants to play.

Quick update, the meeting won't happen until Tuesday night. I'll keep you all posted after that. Thank you all for the encouragement - I would probably have given myself an ulcer years ago if not for you NOM-folk.
Graey,

Maybe you need to re-read your own words here and see what you're really saying.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Red Ryder
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:44 pm

Graey has a built in way out. He said he and the Mrs. would consider a bigger house. The bishop path may lead to that faster then expected.

I still sustain Bishop G even if the nay sayers are probably correct.

You can do it!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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moksha
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by moksha » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:42 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:31 pm
When I was a priest until I left on my mission, our bishop was a humble guy who insisted the young men not pass him the sacrament first.
Sounds like that guy had read the New Testament and zeroed in on the words of Jesus.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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blazerb
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by blazerb » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:20 am

I wish you the best, Graey. If the church were a healthy organization, you would fit right into this calling. As it is, hang in there. I'm sure you'll do great.

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wtfluff
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by wtfluff » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:53 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:44 pm
Graey has a built in way out. He said he and the Mrs. would consider a bigger house. The bishop path may lead to that faster then expected.
Ya know...

There are a few things about LD$-Inc. that scream cult to me, one of which is: "I have to rip my family out of their home/neighborhood (ward) and move to another neighborhood (ward) just to avoid a volunteer position, working for a giant multi-billion dollar real-estate and investment corporation."

But maybe that's just me.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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Red Ryder
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:58 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:53 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:44 pm
Graey has a built in way out. He said he and the Mrs. would consider a bigger house. The bishop path may lead to that faster then expected.
Ya know...

There are a few things about LD$-Inc. that scream cult to me, one of which is: "I have to rip my family out of their home/neighborhood (ward) and move to another neighborhood (ward) just to avoid a volunteer position, working for a giant multi-billion dollar real-estate and investment corporation."

But maybe that's just me.
Isn’t this low hanging fruit fluffy?

Not everyone has the ability to pull the plug. We both agree it’s the best option but we both know family relationships are complicated.

In a perfect world (Hagothian Kingdom) people could openly express how they feel about any organization and choose to be a part of it or not without losing relationship dynamics.

Mormonism doesn’t work that way.

Not sure what I’m trying to say other than it sucks all around for everyone. Spouses aren’t happy we stop believing. Mom and dad who sacrificed time and money. We’re not happy at the expense of our authenticity. It just sucks to be a part of Mormonism from any viewpoint.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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slavereeno
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by slavereeno » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:28 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:58 pm
It just sucks to be a part of Mormonism from any viewpoint.
And there we have it folks, quote of the day.

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Stig
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Stig » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:52 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:28 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:58 pm
It just sucks to be a part of Mormonism from any viewpoint.
And there we have it folks, quote of the day.
Image
“Some say he’s wanted by the CIA and that he sleeps upside down like a Bat. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

“Some say that he lives in a tree, and that his sweat can be used to clean precious metals. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

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