Forced Turning Point

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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MoPag
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by MoPag » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:57 am

*raises arm to the square*

I support and sustain Graey as a super kick a$$ bishop!!!

Now I will set you apart NOM style:

Graey, By the power of the priestesshood which I hold, I set you apart as Bishop.

I call upon the good and divine powers that work in the universe to accompany you on your journey as bishop.

I bless you that you will lead your ward to follow the teachings to bear one another burdens and mourn with those that mourn. I bless you that you will create a ward of love and inclusion.

I bless you that you will be able to introduce your ward to the idea of a loving and kind Christ and loving and kind Heavenly Parents.

I bless you to remember that your NOM ward family is always here to act as counselors for you.

May the Force be with you now and always.

I seal these blessings on your head in Asherah's name, Amen!
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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græy
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by græy » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:48 pm

MoPag wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:57 am
*raises arm to the square*

I support and sustain Graey as a super kick a$$ bishop!!!

Now I will set you apart NOM style:

Graey, By the power of the priestesshood which I hold, I set you apart as Bishop.

I call upon the good and divine powers that work in the universe to accompany you on your journey as bishop.

I bless you that you will lead your ward to follow the teachings to bear one another burdens and mourn with those that mourn. I bless you that you will create a ward of love and inclusion.

I bless you that you will be able to introduce your ward to the idea of a loving and kind Christ and loving and kind Heavenly Parents.

I bless you to remember that your NOM ward family is always here to act as counselors for you.

May the Force be with you now and always.

I seal these blessings on your head in Asherah's name, Amen!
MoPag, your blessings are always the best! Many thanks!
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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græy
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by græy » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:52 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:41 am
Did you accept the calling? I may have missed that.
I did not call to opt out of the calling. And as of Monday night turned my request for counselors.
You could always make a game out of it. See how long you can go as bishop and never once mention Joseph Smith? Base you talks around the Bible and use quotes from sources outside Mormonism. See how long you can go before anyone notices.
I will take great pains to avoid any mention of JS, the restoration, priesthood (probably not possible), and truth claims. I actually played the same game when I was a counselor in the bishopric and I'm fairly certain no one noticed. Then again, no one listens to the counselors any way. ;)
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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A New Name
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by A New Name » Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:51 pm

Obispo Graey

I never asked about masturbation once in 5 years as bishop. But where I got caught up was when a YM I had interviewed for a mission went to the SP and when specifically asked, admitted to having problems with his little factory (BKP's words, not mine!). The SP then called me, and told me I had to check with the prospective missionary weekly, and to send him back after his factory had been shut down for a month. On reflection years later, I see the right way to handle the problem would have been to tell the YM that the SP would be asking about it, and that if he could forgo the deed for a week or so, he could answer in the negative when asked if he did!

I also got in trouble for letting a sister in my ward marry some friends of hers. It didn't help she went online to become an "ordained minister" in some internet church. Lastly, I was questioned why I was letting the RS Pres come to PEC, that the meeting was only for men! I guess I just just ahead of my time!

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alas
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by alas » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:28 pm

A New Name, Thank you for letting your RSP attend PEC. I was a RSP back when that was not even considered and the men would hold PEC, then right after I would join them for welfare meeting, and they gave me assignments of all the things they had just discussed in PEC, then I brought up all the problems I had found that needed attention. “Sister so and so is out of food and there is no money” “sister so and so is having a high risk pregnancy and is confined to bed and needs someone to take her children during the day while her husband is at work.” And they would look at me, and very condescendingly tell me they would discuss these matters next month in PEC and get back to me. Excuse the hell out of me boys, but these items will not wait a GD month till you little boys have your next important meeting so you can tell me what I have your permission to do. The bishop was a prick who chewed me out for any independent decision that involved more than meals delivered, and I was helpless to do anything but wait on their highnesses to make a decision in NEXT MONTH’S PEC. If I called the bishop before welfare meeting, so they could discuss the emergencies now, he told me to bring it up in Welfare meeting. If I asked someone to babysit someone else’s kids, I was chewed out for going ahead without the bishop’s permission. I was treated as the priesthood’s errand boy, and they told me what to do a month later, after sister ordered to bed by her doctor miscarried because she could not stay flat on her back with two toddlers to care for, after the sister with no food who was caring for her 90 yo mother begged off her neighbors for just a can of soup for her mother, going to various neighbors for a month. Yeah, you want to know how my apostasy started? I mistakenly thought welfare meeting was where we discussed ward welfare needs, but no, welfare meeting was where they told me what they had decided in PEC. It seemed to be an exercise in proving to me just how helpless I was without the important men.

So, Graey, treat your RSP as a competent human being. I mean, I know you will, cause you are you. Her inspiration is probably more accurate than your own, because she is down in the trenches with the ward members, not up on some ivory priesthood tower. People tell her stuff they won’t share with the bishop because she is not the judge in Israel, just a normal human being like them.

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wtfluff
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by wtfluff » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:41 pm

Cliff Notes wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:43 pm
I wish you the best but it is not going to work.
Talk about a "drive by"...

Why don't you pull up a folding chair and stick around and chat for a while Cliff?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Corsair
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Corsair » Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:38 pm

græy wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:41 am
I have no intention of resuming tithing payments. I may rethink fast offerings once I get a better handle on where that money is used and how much need is in the ward. If HQ catches wind and wants to release me, I'm A-OK with that.
As with the rest of your NOM ward, I also sustain you as bishop. Your story will go down in NOM history as cautionary tale about how you might still end up in ward leadership due to the blind bureaucracy of LDS general leadership. I will need to make my coffee drinking more public so I don't get put in a similar position.

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wtfluff
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by wtfluff » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:00 pm

Corsair wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:38 pm
As with the rest of your NOM ward, I also sustain you as bishop. Your story will go down in NOM history as cautionary tale about how you might still end up in ward leadership due to the blind bureaucracy of LDS general leadership. I will need to make my coffee drinking more public so I don't get put in a similar position.
Let's be "as honest as we know how to be" here Pirate.

If Graey can get away with "not paying his country-club fees" for a year and still get past the first presidency sentinels, then a bit of roasted seed infusion beverage is not gonna keep anyone out of that extra-comfy bishop chair on the stand.

My fluffy confirmation bias tells me that folks can get away with lots of "things" related to the temple recommend questions, but as soon as someone says they don't pay tithing, all bets are off.

Maybe COVID has changed things... Who knows?

My completely screwed up fluffy brain keeps going through scenarios with Graey and "his" President of Steaks too often when this thread pops up:


SP: Um, Graey, we do know you haven't paid any tithing for a year, but now that you're bishop, we're gonna need you to start paying up.

Graey: No thanks. Feel free to fire me from my volunteer position if you'd like...

And on, and on...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

Reuben
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Reuben » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:15 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:00 pm
Corsair wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:38 pm
As with the rest of your NOM ward, I also sustain you as bishop. Your story will go down in NOM history as cautionary tale about how you might still end up in ward leadership due to the blind bureaucracy of LDS general leadership. I will need to make my coffee drinking more public so I don't get put in a similar position.
Let's be "as honest as we know how to be" here Pirate.

If Graey can get away with "not paying his country-club fees" for a year and still get past the first presidency sentinels, then a bit of roasted seed infusion beverage is not gonna keep anyone out of that extra-comfy bishop chair on the stand.

My fluffy confirmation bias tells me that folks can get away with lots of "things" related to the temple recommend questions, but as soon as someone says they don't pay tithing, all bets are off.

Maybe COVID has changed things... Who knows?

My completely screwed up fluffy brain keeps going through scenarios with Graey and "his" President of Steaks too often when this thread pops up:


SP: Um, Graey, we do know you haven't paid any tithing for a year, but now that you're bishop, we're gonna need you to start paying up.

Graey: No thanks. Feel free to fire me from my volunteer position if you'd like...

And on, and on...
I imagine more visible "sins" are more likely to disqualify you. On the other hand, I would never have expected non-payment to be brushed off so easily...

The whole situation is a little weird.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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wtfluff
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by wtfluff » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:45 pm

Reuben wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:15 pm
I imagine more visible "sins" are more likely to disqualify you.
This is actually a really good point. I tend to forget about out-MORmONing my MORmON neighbors, since I gave up on that silly game long before I even stopped believing.

So to Reuben and Corsair's point: A Starbucks branded drink container in hand is likely good protection against being volun-told you will "volunteer" for a mid-level "calling" in TCOTPOTCOJCOL-d$™.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Cnsl1
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Cnsl1 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:35 pm

The question needs to be asked:

Bishop G, did you specifically tell your bishop or SP that you were not a full tither or did you just finesse that particular question?

I was under the impression that it was more of a finessed response to the temple rec tithing question, not an outright declaration.

Still, the fact that you were called and approved by the 1st presidency suggests that they do very little vetting or research. My guess is that they pray about it, and maybe someone does a google search to make sure you're not wanted by police. Or maybe just a prayer... Or maybe not even that. There are lots of bishops to approve afterall.

I started paying my tithing directly to SLC about 15 years ago, before it became fashionable. Now people pay it directly online but there's a record that the ward clerk can access, but he still cannot access mine. I stopped paying a few years ago but my wife still pays a little and it still shows up as zero on our yearly tithing note. An interesting story... but Maybe I better stop thread jacking and tell it in another thread... Oh well, you've read this much and it kinda relates . So at our last tithing settlement when asked if we were full payers we both were truthful. I finessed it by saying, pointing to DW, "she does the paying." She said she pays but also indicated that the church doesn't really need our money, to which the bishop agreed. She went on to say that sometimes she gives money to people in need, like go fund me things, or whatever. It seemed clear to anyone paying attention that she was saying that she decides to give part of what she designates as Tithing to things other than the church. I couldn't believe she said that. It's the truth but I couldn't believe she said it. I fully expected the bishop to launch into a lesson about it being the Lord's money and that it wasn't our place to decide where it goes, that those other charitable donations were great but they should occur after tithing. I remember at least a half dozen talks in church detailing stories like that and maybe as many general conf talks. But he did not say that. Like I said, he agreed the church doesn't need the money but that it was something God asks us to do. He didn't say boo about her method. And I think he marked us as full tithers and then we talked about other things. In reality, my wife pays a portion of 10% of what she makes to the church. I refuse to pay anything to the church. I came away thinking the bishop either completely agreed with my wife's tithing idea without saying so, or completely missed the fact that she isn't paying 10% .

Maybe like Bishop G, he isn't paying tithing either.

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slavereeno
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by slavereeno » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:41 am

It would certainly not work to be a non-tither in my stake in the morridor. That would be a non-starter.

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wtfluff
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by wtfluff » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:45 am

Cnsl1 wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:35 pm
Still, the fact that you were called and approved by the 1st presidency suggests that they do very little vetting or research. My guess is that they pray about it, and maybe someone does a google search to make sure you're not wanted by police. Or maybe just a prayer... Or maybe not even that. There are lots of bishops to approve afterall.
Ask anyone who has been a stake clerk: They have to produce lots of specific "reports" any time "calling" for a new bishop or stake president is in the works. Tithing reports for the candidates are a HUGE part of this. Graey's President of Steaks knows for a fact that Graey has not paid tithing for a long time. Either that or he's completely blind. The same blindness "excuse" goes for the first presidency also. The FP are all extremely old though, I guess they have an excuse. :mrgreen:
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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Stig
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Stig » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:08 am

Corsair wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:38 pm
græy wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:41 am
I have no intention of resuming tithing payments. I may rethink fast offerings once I get a better handle on where that money is used and how much need is in the ward. If HQ catches wind and wants to release me, I'm A-OK with that.
As with the rest of your NOM ward, I also sustain you as bishop. Your story will go down in NOM history as cautionary tale about how you might still end up in ward leadership due to the blind bureaucracy of LDS general leadership. I will need to make my coffee drinking more public so I don't get put in a similar position.
Just walk around your neighborhood with an open can of beer in your hand. You don't have to actually drink it, just walk around with it; that should solve the problem.
Last edited by Stig on Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Some say he’s wanted by the CIA and that he sleeps upside down like a Bat. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

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2bizE
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by 2bizE » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:01 am

Raising my right arm to the square....I 2BizE solemnly swear to support Graey as Bishop of his ward and a representative of NOM. I support him ordaining his wife to the Aaronic priesthood as a priestess to support him in this journey. I also support him declining to conduct tithing settlement at the end of the year. I also support Graey in the calling of women to the Sunday school presidency as well as the refusal to send people who look at porn to the 12-step recovery program. I support Graey in instilling a Christ centered approach and getting rid of all the Mormon culture crap. I also support Graey in setting up classes for all to learn about the messy ness of church history as well as the abolishment of the Book of Abraham. I support Bishop Graey as he works to support those who need emotional and financial support. I support the Bishop is using as much fast offering money as necessary to truly help people. I support Bishop Graey with delegating most things to his counselors, RSP, EQP, etc so he can go home to his family after church and not make being bishop a full time job. I do hereby support Bishop Graey in this calling from another man pretending it is from an unseen god, in the name of jesucristo amen.
~2bizE

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græy
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by græy » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:03 am

Cnsl1 wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:35 pm
The question needs to be asked:

Bishop G, did you specifically tell your bishop or SP that you were not a full tither or did you just finesse that particular question?

I was under the impression that it was more of a finessed response to the temple rec tithing question, not an outright declaration.
græy wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:05 am

...

Then he went on with the recommend questions. I basically lied about tithing. Which also invalidates the question on honesty, I guess. But at this point, I really figured that I was out of the race for bishop and just wanted my recommend signed (for family reasons). I was actually a bit surprised when he got to the end of the interview and went ahead and signed my recommend.
We gave our tithing equivalent to other charities and families in need. Some to pay for hospital/cancer treatment bills, some to pay for a funeral, some to local food banks. When asked if I payed tithing I simply said "yes" and SP didn't blink before he continued on to the next interview question.
wtfluff wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:45 am
Ask anyone who has been a stake clerk: They have to produce lots of specific "reports" any time "calling" for a new bishop or stake president is in the works. Tithing reports for the candidates are a HUGE part of this. Graey's President of Steaks knows for a fact that Graey has not paid tithing for a long time. Either that or he's completely blind. The same blindness "excuse" goes for the first presidency also. The FP are all extremely old though, I guess they have an excuse. :mrgreen:
This was my understanding before going in to the interview. I assumed those reports had been generated by either the stake or the church HQ and that I was going to be immediately outed and released from my current calling as EQP. My actual plan going in, was tell him I had no faith in the church's history or restoration narrative, let it come to light that I haven't paid tithing, and then deal with the consequences.

When he got to the recommend question about the restoration I told him my story of reading the essays, feeling the ground drop out from under me, weeks later getting called as a bishopric counselor and hoping that was a sign I was on the right track or at least would find the right answers - only to have those hopes crushed over and over again. I told him I had real concerns and lingering questions about history and the "restoration." And he didn't seem to care.

By the time he got to the tithing question my head was already swimming. How could he not care about history? Church history is everything! We are not who we claim to be if our history is not what we claim it is. I barely thought about tithing when he asked, I just hoped I could get my recommend to keep family happy and honestly thought any remote possibility of getting called as bishop was completely gone at that point. I was wrong.
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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græy
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by græy » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:09 am

A New Name wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:51 pm
On reflection years later, I see the right way to handle the problem would have been to tell the YM that the SP would be asking about it, and that if he could forgo the deed for a week or so, he could answer in the negative when asked if he did!
This is a good thought. We have a few boys who will reach mission age if I'm here full term. I need to come to terms with being direct and clear about subjects like this while also letting them know that there is no judgement or reason for shame. I would prefer to not bring it up as you tried, but if the stake is just going to send them back then gaming the system is the next best approach.
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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Red Ryder
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:50 pm

Reminds me of the time I went in to renew my temple recommend. I wanted to discuss my concerns and get guidance but the bishop just asked how I was doing and had already filled out and signed the card before I went in. He liked to ask how everyone was doing and stare hypnotically into your eyes as if he was reading your soul. You know the type. Nice guy but relied on his authority and charm vs reading questions straight from the book. I passed.

When I went to the stake for part 2, I thought I would discuss my concerns with the SP. he was absent so I got the 2nd councilor who was a long time seminary teacher at the high school. The kind of guy that got along better with kids then adults. His thing was to ask you all the questions WORD FOR WORD without having to read them at all. Yes, he was proud to have memorized them but not in an ignorant way. More for efficiency purposes because he ran through them so fast you could barely say yes before he was half way through the next question. By question 3 he started to sign the recommend so when I noticed that I think he just didn’t care to discuss anything with anyone. Just answer the questions, shake your hand and move to the next person. Seriously, like in and out in 2 minutes flat.

I think most leadership realize that they are preaching to the choir when it comes to a TR. like everyone knows it’s a part of the expectations and culture and they know it’s weird as hell.

If I was bishop, I’d probably just start with a quick question like “Brother Smith, are there any issues that would keep you from having a current TR? No, well thanks for coming in it was a pleasure to renew your TR.

Yes? Well pray about it and ask HF for forgiveness then (as I hand them the renewed TR) go to the temple to feel his love and presence. Let me know how it goes.

I’d manage with the least amount of time and maximum effort to promote a loving Jesus and Heavenly Fater. Like a great marketing PR campaign or social media influencer.

Love Jesus... Live better!

Or

Jesus Loves... Live Life!

You get the point.

PS. When will this adventure your starting on be official? I can request the pirate guy change your title to Bishop Graey or Obispo Graey as noted a few posts up. :lol:
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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wtfluff
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by wtfluff » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:53 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:50 pm
PS. When will this adventure your starting on be official? I can request the pirate guy change your title to Bishop Graey or Obispo Graey as noted a few posts up. :lol:
I vote for GraeyBispo.

(Yes, that's plagiarized from another 'Bispo)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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græy
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by græy » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:09 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:50 pm
PS. When will this adventure your starting on be official? I can request the pirate guy change your title to Bishop Graey or Obispo Graey as noted a few posts up. :lol:
The 18th is the "big day." I've been working on my acceptance speech. Something like, "Now is the great day of my power. I reign from the rivers to th..." wait, surely I can come up with something better than that.

PS - I actually had to look up bispo to make sure my assumption was right. I'm really not big on titles. I'll have to work hard at getting people to drop the bishop thing.
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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