Forced Turning Point

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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græy
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by græy » Tue May 11, 2021 10:31 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:19 pm
Thanks for the updates!

May I suggest you skip the painting and go with a quilt or something like minded from the relief society?

Or go with a cheap cork board and pin up drawings from the primary kids?

Or a white board with YM/YW planned activity notes and timelines?
I really like this idea. Cards/drawings from primary. Highlight pictures from YM/YW activities. Infinitely better than the standard church-works. This is very likely what I'll really do.

I also considered getting a picture of JS actually reading from the gold plates and adding a caption at the bottom that says something about how this didn't actually happen. edit: In reality I don't think I could stomach looking at JS's picture every day.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

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A New Name
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by A New Name » Tue May 11, 2021 1:31 pm

Bishop, print out the below and keep in your top right drawer for emergencies.
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græy
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by græy » Tue May 11, 2021 8:46 pm

A New Name wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:31 pm
Bishop, print out the below and keep in your top right drawer for emergencies.
:lol:
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

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Hagoth
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 16, 2021 7:05 am

Wait a minute!!!

See, this is what happens when you get really busy elsewhere and don't keep up with NOM threads. One minute one of your friends is out of danger because he hasn't paid tithing for a year and the next he's the freakin' bishop! :shock:

You know what will make you a great bishop? You don't believe you have special magical powers that make you superior to your ward members. You are on equal ground. What's that definition of courage? Being terrified but going ahead and doing it anyway?

Suggestions for wall paintings:

1- The temple priests giving back the widows' mite and telling her they don't need it and she should buy flour and have a poor friend over for biscuits.

2- The Carl Bloch painting of the resurrection - the original before the Ensign removed the wings from the angels and covered their shoulders.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Reuben
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Reuben » Sun May 16, 2021 5:20 pm

Maybe a counterpoint to the oh-so-serious Jesus in all the Mormon artwork: https://www.art4god.com/store/joy-to-the-world
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

Thoughtful
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Thoughtful » Sun May 23, 2021 3:43 pm

Wait, what?

They call you, and...you accepted? Are you paying tithes now? What is your plan....lift where you stand, or burn it the eff down?

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græy
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by græy » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:01 pm

Sorry guys, I'm not sure how I missed these last few posts on here until now...
Hagoth wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 7:05 am
Wait a minute!!!

See, this is what happens when you get really busy elsewhere and don't keep up with NOM threads. One minute one of your friends is out of danger because he hasn't paid tithing for a year and the next he's the freakin' bishop! :shock:
Haha, Its been a wild ride!
You know what will make you a great bishop? You don't believe you have special magical powers that make you superior to your ward members. You are on equal ground. What's that definition of courage? Being terrified but going ahead and doing it anyway?
I appreciate that, Hagoth. Thank you. It has been a bit nerve wracking the few times so far that people have come asking what they should do, expecting some super-powered insider knowledge based response. But I've got nothing to offer other than a listening ear and encouragement for them to trust themselves to make the best choice.
Thoughtful wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 3:43 pm
Wait, what?

They call you, and...you accepted? Are you paying tithes now? What is your plan....lift where you stand, or burn it the eff down?
I refuse to resume paying tithing. My tithing now is to the local food bank or friends and family who are in particular need. If HQ figures me out and decides to release me, I'm okay with that.

My plan going forward is to.... I had a long response written here, but I'll have to write it up in another thread maybe. I'm not trying to burn anything down. I'll just say that I'm probably a terrible "Judge in Israel". I'm not judgmental. I just want people to feel like they have a safe place to ask questions, vent, or get help if they need it. ...and I'll do it without even mentioning JS, RMN, or DHO 'cause screw'em.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

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Red Ryder
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:55 pm

græy wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:01 pm
I refuse to resume paying tithing. My tithing now is to the local food bank or friends and family who are in particular need.
Don’t sell yourself short. I’m sure 90% of your free time filled by your bishop calling is equal to 10% or more of your income. :lol: :lol:

Hey quick question. Hypothetically speaking, if one of us feels the need to confess something to a bishop, could you be our online bishop for confessional purposes only? If so, does a PM suffice or do you want us to publicly confess? Maybe a new thread for public humiliation and outward expressions of sorrow?

Just wondering.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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blazerb
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by blazerb » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:39 pm

græy wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:01 pm
My plan going forward is to.... I had a long response written here, but I'll have to write it up in another thread maybe. I'm not trying to burn anything down. I'll just say that I'm probably a terrible "Judge in Israel". I'm not judgmental. I just want people to feel like they have a safe place to ask questions, vent, or get help if they need it. ...and I'll do it without even mentioning JS, RMN, or DHO 'cause screw'em.
I think the fact that you are not judgmental makes you the perfect "Judge in Israel." If every bishop were like you, the church would be doing some real good in the world. Hang in there!

Charlotte
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Charlotte » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:56 am

I’m fascinated by this whole thing. I’ve quietly opted out of anything that requires speaking or teaching because I can’t figure how I would steer around the gaping holes in my “testimony.” Good luck to you and I hope you’ll keep posting.

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Angel
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Angel » Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:13 am

græy wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:01 pm

I appreciate that, Hagoth. Thank you. It has been a bit nerve wracking the few times so far that people have come asking what they should do, expecting some super-powered insider knowledge based response. But I've got nothing to offer other than a listening ear and encouragement for them to trust themselves to make the best choice.
Confession time.... bless me father, for I have sinned ...

My turning point involved a bishop who obviously had no divine guidance... handed out a temple recommend and calling to someone who lied through interview and was quite dangerous. I marched them both back into the office for another interview and removal of said TR. I was pretty rough on that bishop and feel bad about it now, he was just a fumbling pawn for the church as so many are. Through it all I came to the conclusion that women are the real protectors, the real providers in so many different situations, and I am now fulfilling my proper role.

Just ask those who come with high expectation, why do they think the original apostles could not walk on water? Could not always heal people? Did not understand the atonement, could not stay awake even one hour? What does it mean that an apostle was the one who betrayed Christ with a kiss? Can we rely and worship and trust apostles? Answer, no. When it crumbles down, that is when you find the strength of your own two legs, when you walk on your own two feet. People will come who are in really bad situations, help them find their own inner strength. Especially in the case of women who are told they have no authority over themselves, have no ability to lead, cannot be bishop, cannot bless or baptize or heal - women especially need to know they hold authority. That authority is revelated when you take it for yourself. No one gives it to you, no one lays their hands on your head - that is not real authority. Real authority is something you take yourself.

something from another spiritual group I'm in now that came around and I appreciated:

Independence and self reliance:

"I release my partner from the obligation to complete me.
I release my parents from the feeling they failed with me.
I release my children from the need to bring me pride, so they can write their own paths to the rhythm of their heart, as it whispers in their ear.
I do not lack anything, I learn with all beings all the time.

I thank my grandparents and forefathers who have gathered so that I can breathe life today.
I release them from past failures and unfulfilled desires, aware that they have done their best to resolve their situations within the consciousness they had at that moment.

I honor you, I love you and I recognize you as innocent.

I am transparent before your eyes, so they know that I do not hide or owe anything other than being true to myself and to my very existence, that walking with the wisdom of the heart, I am aware that I fulfill my life project, free from invisible and visible family loyalties that might disturb my Peace and Happiness, which are my only responsibilities.

I renounce the role of savior as a being one who unites or fulfills the expectations of others.
(A savior is someone who helps others see their own inner light and strength.)

Learning through, and only through, love, I bless my essence, my way of expressing, even though somebody may not understand me.

I understand myself, because I alone have lived and experienced my history; because I know myself, I know who I am, what I feel, what I do and why I do it.

I respect and approve myself.
I honor the Divinity in me and in you.
We are free.”


From a mindset of having faith in others, to a mindset of having faith in yourself. It is a big step.

Blessing to you bishop as you try to help people find their strength!
Last edited by Angel on Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hagoth
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:25 am

græy wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:01 pm
It has been a bit nerve wracking the few times so far that people have come asking what they should do, expecting some super-powered insider knowledge based response. But I've got nothing to offer other than a listening ear and encouragement for them to trust themselves to make the best choice.
If you want to really illustrate how the Bishop Power works you should keep a Magic 8-Ball behind your desk and pull it out when asked for guidance.

"Should I quit my job to prep full time for the apocalypse?"
"Ask again later"

It would be at least as accurate as Heber C. Kimball using his divining rod to receive revelation. You can holy-it-up by rubbing on a little bit of consecrated oil, like early church leaders did with their (divining) rods.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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alas
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by alas » Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:34 am

Angel wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:13 am
græy wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:01 pm

I appreciate that, Hagoth. Thank you. It has been a bit nerve wracking the few times so far that people have come asking what they should do, expecting some super-powered insider knowledge based response. But I've got nothing to offer other than a listening ear and encouragement for them to trust themselves to make the best choice.
Confession time.... bless me father, for I have sinned ...

My turning point involved a bishop who obviously had no divine guidance... handed out a temple recommend and calling to someone who lied through interview and was quite dangerous. I marched them both back into the office for another interview and removal of said TR. I was pretty rough on that bishop and feel bad about it now, he was just a fumbling pawn for the church as so many are. Through it all I came to the conclusion that women are the real protectors, the real providers in so many different situations, and I am now fulfilling my proper role.

Just ask those who come with high expectation, why do they think the original apostles could not walk on water? Could not always heal people? Did not understand the atonement, could not stay awake even one hour? What does it mean that an apostle was the one who betrayed Christ with a kiss? Can we rely and worship and trust apostles? Answer, no. When it crumbles down, that is when you find the strength of your own two legs, when you walk on your own two feet. People will come who are in really bad situations, help them find their own inner strength. Especially in the case of women who are told they have no authority over themselves, have no ability to lead, cannot be bishop, cannot bless or baptize or heal - women especially need to know they hold authority. That authority is revelated when you take it for yourself. No one gives it to you, no one lays their hands on your head - that is not real authority. Real authority is something you take yourself.

something from another spiritual group I'm in now that came around and I appreciated:

Independence and self reliance:

"I release my partner from the obligation to complete me.
I release my parents from the feeling they failed with me.
I release my children from the need to bring me pride, so they can write their own paths to the rhythm of their heart, as it whispers in their ear.
I do not lack anything, I learn with all beings all the time.

I thank my grandparents and forefathers who have gathered so that I can breathe life today.
I release them from past failures and unfulfilled desires, aware that they have done their best to resolve their situations within the consciousness they had at that moment.

I honor you, I love you and I recognize you as innocent.

I am transparent before your eyes, so they know that I do not hide or owe anything other than being true to myself and to my very existence, that walking with the wisdom of the heart, I am aware that I fulfill my life project, free from invisible and visible family loyalties that might disturb my Peace and Happiness, which are my only responsibilities.

I renounce the role of savior as a being one who unites or fulfills the expectations of others.
(A savior is someone who helps others see their own inner light and strength.)

Learning through, and only through, love, I bless my essence, my way of expressing, even though somebody may not understand me.

I understand myself, because I alone have lived and experienced my history; because I know myself, I know who I am, what I feel, what I do and why I do it.

I respect and approve myself.
I honor the Divinity in me and in you.
We are free.”


From a mindset of having faith in others, to a mindset of having faith in yourself. It is a big step.

Blessing to you bishop as you try to help people find their strength!
I had a wise stake president once who told me, “My job isn’t to get inspiration for people. My job is to help people get into the right frame of mind to get inspiration for themselves.”

Many people in the church don’t think that way. They think priesthood has a bat phone to God. So, your job is to convince them that they are just as capable of inspiration as anybody else on earth, and do they really think God loves them so little that he isn’t on speaking terms. That God plays games of “I’m not speaking to so and so, so I will tell this other guy to tell them what I want them to know?” Do a “Hermiony ” like she did when Ron wasn’t talking to Harry, and tell them to talk to God themselves.

But like I said, many members don’t think of it like that. I once had what I thought was a very close friend. She had told me things like there was nothing that could ever come between us. But when I tried to explain what my stake president had told me, she got angry, hung up on me, and has never spoken to me again. That was the ultimate in apostasy, believing that I could speak to God for myself.

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Angel
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Angel » Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:14 am

alas wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:34 am
... the ultimate in apostasy, believing that I could speak to God for myself.
Heretic! Lean not unto your own understanding is doctrine. Burn you and your stake with Tyndale and Martin Luther :D
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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sparky
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by sparky » Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:45 am

alas wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:34 am
So, your job is to convince them that they are just as capable of inspiration as anybody else on earth, and do they really think God loves them so little that he isn’t on speaking terms. That God plays games of “I’m not speaking to so and so, so I will tell this other guy to tell them what I want them to know?” Do a “Hermiony ” like she did when Ron wasn’t talking to Harry, and tell them to talk to God themselves.
This is a decent approach that would probably help a lot of members, but there are lots of people (like me) who believed it's not the leader's job to get inspiration for them, but also feel God never really "talks" to them either. You're left feeling like you're unworthy for some reason or your problems are too small for God to care about. I would argue a better approach for some people is to instill confidence in their own ability to think and reason things out and make good decisions without any input from any God at all. Before my faith collapsed and I became an agnostic atheist, I was at the point where I'd decided is just live my life and make decisions the best I could, and if God felt like intervening, well, he'd have to let me know himself. That worked alright for a while.

Btw, hello again everyone, I've not frequented NOM for quite a while now and I was shocked to see graey called as (and actually accepting the calling) bishop of all things! I should check in more often haha

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Hagoth
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:11 am

sparky wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:45 am
Btw, hello again everyone, I've not frequented NOM for quite a while now and I was shocked to see graey called as (and actually accepting the calling) bishop of all things! I should check in more often haha
Hi Sparky, great to hear from you!

I really like what you said. A real wakeup call can be when you realize it's possible to get "answers from God" about just about anything and if you genuinely put it to the test you will also learn that "God's" answers are not much better than tossing a coin, or at least highly dependent on your own thoughts that are hovering just below the surface. That's why I was so surprised that the only strong confirmation I ever got about the BoM was when I was doubting and I finally asked if it ISN'T true. Was it God the Mormon God I was praying to telling me that? More like own logic processors saying "so, you finally got brave enough to ask yourself the obvious question."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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alas
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Re: Forced Turning Point

Post by alas » Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:06 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:11 am
sparky wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:45 am
Btw, hello again everyone, I've not frequented NOM for quite a while now and I was shocked to see graey called as (and actually accepting the calling) bishop of all things! I should check in more often haha
Hi Sparky, great to hear from you!

I really like what you said. A real wakeup call can be when you realize it's possible to get "answers from God" about just about anything and if you genuinely put it to the test you will also learn that "God's" answers are not much better than tossing a coin, or at least highly dependent on your own thoughts that are hovering just below the surface. That's why I was so surprised that the only strong confirmation I ever got about the BoM was when I was doubting and I finally asked if it ISN'T true. Was it God the Mormon God I was praying to telling me that? More like own logic processors saying "so, you finally got brave enough to ask yourself the obvious question."
Which is all why I would rather listen to my own “revelation”/confirmation bias than be brain washed that the church and it’s leaders are always right and if I don’t agree then I am just wrong *again*. And that I should hand my moral authority over to anybody else.

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