The true order of tithing

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2bizE
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The true order of tithing

Post by 2bizE » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:30 pm

There was a lot of discussion on Bishop Graey’s thread, so I thought I would start a new one on tithing.
I have not yet gone non-tithe paying, but I did skip tithing settlement this last year. I thought I would talk about how tithing should be paid: the true order of tithing, or tithing in the sure way.
Tithing is supposed to be paid on your increase. I think of myself and family as a business. I have a gross income. I have many different expenses. After necessary expenses are paid then I know what my increase is. For example, if I earn $50,000 gross pay per year. From that I subtract living expenses including home, food, entertainment, education and school supplies, fuel, maid service, gifts for children, etc. These are the living expenses defined in the Church Handbook of instructions for Mission presidents. In the end, if my living expenses are $45,000, I have an increase of $5,000. I would then pay annual tithing of $500.
Is this the true order of tithing you follow?
~2bizE

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jfro18
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by jfro18 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:36 pm

I believe that's how tithing is supposed to go, but I do not believe for a second that it is how most members approach it.

In the David Bokovoy interviews on Mormon Stories he talks about how the church "actualized" the tithing verses in the Bible to fit their needs at the time. I believe he said the Mormon version of tithing is not in line with the Bible, but it's not necessarily wrong because they are trying to actualize it to their needs. He might think a bit differently now, but I believe that was his explanation 2-3 years ago in the interview.

But I think you're interpretation is how it was supposed to be - the church was also supposed to gather up all of the offerings every three years and give them out to those in need, but that has yet to happen as well.

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Advocate
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by Advocate » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:39 am

Rock Waterman has a good post on his blog about the history of tithing and what it actually means. You can read it at http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/ ... thing.html

It should be no surprise that historical meaning doesn't jive with church culture today.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:35 am

Advocate wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:39 am
Rock Waterman has a good post on his blog about the history of tithing and what it actually means. You can read it at http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/ ... thing.html

It should be no surprise that historical meaning doesn't jive with church culture today.
No longer a huge fan of Rock now that he's a "Plandemic" anti-vaxxer, but this post was huge for me as I started my faith transition. It's an excellent piece, full of historical context and good argumentation. While I no longer pay on my gross, my circumstances at this point will not allow for a "pure" Rockian view of tithing, which is very unfortunate. But at least I'm no longer feeding the beast the way I was.

And I agree, most members and most importantly, the majority of leadership, will not see tithing this way.

Not to thread jack too much, but I have a cool tithing story. So the missus and I had a bit of a fight over tithing and my taxes back in March. I have a little side business, and how I pay tithing is that whatever profit I made on the business, which is minuscule, I pay tithing on. Since Sis. M participates in the business, she was very upset when she found out that's how I pay tithing. In her mind, whatever I invoice, I should pay tithing on, regardless of the expenses I incur. Yeah, not going to happen. So in frustration, she contacts my kid who not only is an accountant, but of all my kids, this child is the closest to Sis M in church views. So I'm sure Sis M felt some validation coming on - little does SIs M know, this kid is coming around to a more liberal NOM interpretation of things. So my kid said, "Mom, this is pretty simple to understand. You want to give the church as much as you can, and Dad wants to give them as little as possible to keep his recommend. Just deal with it on those terms." And thankfully, this was the end of Sis M's objection to my way of doing tithing. Things are getting better! Thank the Lord above for my NOM kids.
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Linked
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by Linked » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:39 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:35 am
Not to thread jack too much, but I have a cool tithing story. So the missus and I had a bit of a fight over tithing and my taxes back in March. I have a little side business, and how I pay tithing is that whatever profit I made on the business, which is minuscule, I pay tithing on. Since Sis. M participates in the business, she was very upset when she found out that's how I pay tithing. In her mind, whatever I invoice, I should pay tithing on, regardless of the expenses I incur. Yeah, not going to happen. So in frustration, she contacts my kid who not only is an accountant, but of all my kids, this child is the closest to Sis M in church views. So I'm sure Sis M felt some validation coming on - little does SIs M know, this kid is coming around to a more liberal NOM interpretation of things. So my kid said, "Mom, this is pretty simple to understand. You want to give the church as much as you can, and Dad wants to give them as little as possible to keep his recommend. Just deal with it on those terms." And thankfully, this was the end of Sis M's objection to my way of doing tithing. Things are getting better! Thank the Lord above for my NOM kids.
You have a wise kid.
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Hagoth
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by Hagoth » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:28 pm

2bizE wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:30 pm
I have not yet gone non-tithe paying,
Sorry to hear that. I'm the opposite. I don't pay tithing but I still go to tithing settlement. I do it for Mrs. Hagoth. The funny thing is that she has changed her definition of tithing from giving money to the church to giving it to people she knows who are struggling. I love that. Ever since the news broke about Ensign Investments, more people have started realizing that the widow's mite is more of a cautionary tale than an inspirational one.
2bizE wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:30 pm
Is this the true order of tithing you follow?
You do whatever the living prophet wants you to do. Since you can't ask him directly you just imagine the scenario that is the biggest sacrifice for your family and do that.
Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:35 am
No longer a huge fan of Rock now that he's a "Plandemic" anti-vaxxer, but this post was huge for me as I started my faith transition.
That's kind of what his "Wilford Woodruff's Pants Are On Fire" article did for me:
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2013/ ... -fire.html
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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nibbler
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by nibbler » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:25 pm

I was repeatedly taught that tithing was 10% of gross in very explicit terms. One penny less than a full 10% of gross income was robbing god.

Once upon a time every church handbook was available online in pdf format. The 1963 edition (IIRC) specifically said that tithing was on a wage earner's gross income. I remember that the word gross was italicized or bolded to give it emphasis.

Of course that policy changed in 1970 with the letter stating that everyone can make their own decision about what they believe they owe the lord. I think in my case the 1963 policy was drilled into people and leaders that remember that policy persisted that teaching well past its expiration date.

Edit: I don't pretend 10% on gross is the current policy, I'm just stating what I was always taught and my guess as to why that was what I was taught. The church does a poor job when policies change; they put forth a new policy and quietly stop talking about the outdated policy. The old school continues enforcing old policies (keep conservative members happy) while still making token changes for progressive members.
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

Blashyrkh
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by Blashyrkh » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:24 pm

So a few years ago I was medically separated from the Army after having a heart attack out of the blue. While I do get a stipend which I am grateful for it is nowhere near what I was earning. It got to the point where we couldn't make ends meet and pay tithing. Around this same time was when the story about the church building a world class tactical training facility for their "elite guards." I had enough and told my wife that she could pay on what she made but my earnings would stay in the family. Why should my kids go without while Rusty and Dave live the high life? After some study I found this quote from Orson Hyde. He wrote, “If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother’s and children’s bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world’s good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father.” So much for "if it becomes a choice between tithing and buying your in kids shoes...pay tithing. If it comes between feeding your kids or paying tithing...pay tithing." If there really are blessings from paying tithing the how come Utah always ranks among the top states for bankruptcy filings?

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2bizE
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by 2bizE » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:38 pm

I remember many lessons where teaching about tithing and someone asked whether we were to pay on Gross or Net income, people would say “It depends on whether you want to receive gross or net blessings”.
~2bizE

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2bizE
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by 2bizE » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:39 pm

Blashyrkh wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:24 pm
So a few years ago I was medically separated from the Army after having a heart attack out of the blue. While I do get a stipend which I am grateful for it is nowhere near what I was earning. It got to the point where we couldn't make ends meet and pay tithing. Around this same time was when the story about the church building a world class tactical training facility for their "elite guards." I had enough and told my wife that she could pay on what she made but my earnings would stay in the family. Why should my kids go without while Rusty and Dave live the high life? After some study I found this quote from Orson Hyde. He wrote, “If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother’s and children’s bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world’s good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father.” So much for "if it becomes a choice between tithing and buying your in kids shoes...pay tithing. If it comes between feeding your kids or paying tithing...pay tithing." If there really are blessings from paying tithing the how come Utah always ranks among the top states for bankruptcy filings?
This is an amazing quote by Orson Hyde. The entire concept of tithing has changed since the origin of tithing in Mormonism.
~2bizE

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moksha
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by moksha » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:49 pm

As Elder Gong or the Presiding Bishop Gérald Caussé would tell the Brethren, "The tithing must flow". That is why it is the overwhelming concern of the Brethren Guild. "Tithing means stipends, travel, and Temples. There must be tithing. Tithing is what built the corporation and tithing will sustain it when all the other widgets we sell fail."
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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blazerb
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by blazerb » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:44 am

moksha wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:49 pm
As Elder Gong or the Presiding Bishop Gérald Caussé would tell the Brethren, "The tithing must flow". That is why it is the overwhelming concern of the Brethren Guild. "Tithing means stipends, travel, and Temples. There must be tithing. Tithing is what built the corporation and tithing will sustain it when all the other widgets we sell fail."
I sort of agree. I think the tithing is more about establishing control. Between investments and the for-profit side of the church, I don't think that tithing is needed to run the church. However if you can get a member to give a significant chunk of their paycheck to the church, that member will have an incentive to avoid difficult questions about the practices and history of the church.

GA's could make more money working at real jobs as executives in companies, but the thing that makes it all worthwhile is seeing hundreds of people at a time stand up when you enter the room, seeing the gleam in the eye of a young woman or man who gets to shake your hand, putting your feet on the desk of the stake president when you show up for conference (based on a true story, for what it's worth). You don't get to have those things with just money. You have to have followers to make it all work. Tithing makes members into followers, in my opinion. It makes the stipends, travel, and temples worthwhile.

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deacon blues
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by deacon blues » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:07 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:35 am
Advocate wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:39 am
Rock Waterman has a good post on his blog about the history of tithing and what it actually means. You can read it at http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/ ... thing.html

It should be no surprise that historical meaning doesn't jive with church culture today.
No longer a huge fan of Rock now that he's a "Plandemic" anti-vaxxer, but this post was huge for me as I started my faith transition. It's an excellent piece, full of historical context and good argumentation. While I no longer pay on my gross, my circumstances at this point will not allow for a "pure" Rockian view of tithing, which is very unfortunate. But at least I'm no longer feeding the beast the way I was.

And I agree, most members and most importantly, the majority of leadership, will not see tithing this way.

Not to thread jack too much, but I have a cool tithing story. So the missus and I had a bit of a fight over tithing and my taxes back in March. I have a little side business, and how I pay tithing is that whatever profit I made on the business, which is minuscule, I pay tithing on. Since Sis. M participates in the business, she was very upset when she found out that's how I pay tithing. In her mind, whatever I invoice, I should pay tithing on, regardless of the expenses I incur. Yeah, not going to happen. So in frustration, she contacts my kid who not only is an accountant, but of all my kids, this child is the closest to Sis M in church views. So I'm sure Sis M felt some validation coming on - little does SIs M know, this kid is coming around to a more liberal NOM interpretation of things. So my kid said, "Mom, this is pretty simple to understand. You want to give the church as much as you can, and Dad wants to give them as little as possible to keep his recommend. Just deal with it on those terms." And thankfully, this was the end of Sis M's objection to my way of doing tithing. Things are getting better! Thank the Lord above for my NOM kids.
I enjoyed this story! I remember my former wife as a new farm bride trying to wrap her head around business profits vs. business expenses. We would get six figure payments for our crops, and she thought we should be be paying five figure tithing. :shock: I tried to explain we also had, six figure expenses: equipment, seed, power, irrigation, labor, etc. :o When it was all added in we BARELY made five figure profits. :cry: That's why we paid four figure tithing. :roll: That was so very long ago. ;)

And I'm grateful I'm not a farmer anymore! :D

But I do miss the Teton valley scenery. :|
God is Love. God is Truth

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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by wtfluff » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:14 pm

blazerb wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:44 am
GA's could make more money working at real jobs as executives in companies
I'm gong to add a big FLUFFY caveat to the above statment:

SOME GA's could make more money working at real jobs as executives in companies.

The group of really old guys at the top should have retired many years ago, and they should be living off of their own retirement savings.

Instead, they live off what should be the retirement savings of their followers, while wallowing around in the other perks and benefits (including $$$$$$) that they receive as MORmON celebrities.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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2bizE
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by 2bizE » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:21 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:07 am
Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:35 am
Advocate wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:39 am
Rock Waterman has a good post on his blog about the history of tithing and what it actually means. You can read it at http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/ ... thing.html

It should be no surprise that historical meaning doesn't jive with church culture today.
No longer a huge fan of Rock now that he's a "Plandemic" anti-vaxxer, but this post was huge for me as I started my faith transition. It's an excellent piece, full of historical context and good argumentation. While I no longer pay on my gross, my circumstances at this point will not allow for a "pure" Rockian view of tithing, which is very unfortunate. But at least I'm no longer feeding the beast the way I was.

And I agree, most members and most importantly, the majority of leadership, will not see tithing this way.

Not to thread jack too much, but I have a cool tithing story. So the missus and I had a bit of a fight over tithing and my taxes back in March. I have a little side business, and how I pay tithing is that whatever profit I made on the business, which is minuscule, I pay tithing on. Since Sis. M participates in the business, she was very upset when she found out that's how I pay tithing. In her mind, whatever I invoice, I should pay tithing on, regardless of the expenses I incur. Yeah, not going to happen. So in frustration, she contacts my kid who not only is an accountant, but of all my kids, this child is the closest to Sis M in church views. So I'm sure Sis M felt some validation coming on - little does SIs M know, this kid is coming around to a more liberal NOM interpretation of things. So my kid said, "Mom, this is pretty simple to understand. You want to give the church as much as you can, and Dad wants to give them as little as possible to keep his recommend. Just deal with it on those terms." And thankfully, this was the end of Sis M's objection to my way of doing tithing. Things are getting better! Thank the Lord above for my NOM kids.
I enjoyed this story! I remember my former wife as a new farm bride trying to wrap her head around business profits vs. business expenses. We would get six figure payments for our crops, and she thought we should be be paying five figure tithing. :shock: I tried to explain we also had, six figure expenses: equipment, seed, power, irrigation, labor, etc. :o When it was all added in we BARELY made five figure profits. :cry: That's why we paid four figure tithing. :roll: That was so very long ago. ;)

And I'm grateful I'm not a farmer anymore! :D

But I do miss the Teton valley scenery. :|
Farming is a great example of profits and expenses and tithing. I also grew up on a farm with views of the Tetons. We primarily leased our land to other farmers, so we were not purchasing much equipment.
~2bizE

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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by Spicy McHaggis » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:45 pm

Towards the end of my time as a tithe payer, if I went to scout camp for a week, I figured that I shouldn't pay tithing for the next nine weeks, as I already gave my 10%.

I would think given how much time bishops donate to their role in the church, they shouldn't have to pay a penny.

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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by Angel » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:00 pm

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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by wtfluff » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:17 pm

2bizE wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:21 pm
deacon blues wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:07 am
I enjoyed this story! I remember my former wife as a new farm bride trying to wrap her head around business profits vs. business expenses. We would get six figure payments for our crops, and she thought we should be be paying five figure tithing. :shock: I tried to explain we also had, six figure expenses: equipment, seed, power, irrigation, labor, etc. :o When it was all added in we BARELY made five figure profits. :cry: That's why we paid four figure tithing. :roll: That was so very long ago. ;)

And I'm grateful I'm not a farmer anymore! :D

But I do miss the Teton valley scenery. :|
Farming is a great example of profits and expenses and tithing. I also grew up on a farm with views of the Tetons. We primarily leased our land to other farmers, so we were not purchasing much equipment.
I know someone who basically said the same thing about a relative who ran a landscaping business.

I was honestly shocked that this person thought that the relative should pay tithing on "total profits" and not even think about "net profits" after expenses.


Luckily I'm pretty sure that relative is a "non tithe payer" so no worries that the relative is over-paying on their LD$-Inc. "membership dues."
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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hmb
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by hmb » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:11 am

wtfluff wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:14 pm
blazerb wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:44 am
GA's could make more money working at real jobs as executives in companies
I'm gong to add a big FLUFFY caveat to the above statment:

SOME GA's could make more money working at real jobs as executives in companies.

The group of really old guys at the top should have retired many years ago, and they should be living off of their own retirement savings.

Instead, they live off what should be the retirement savings of their followers, while wallowing around in the other perks and benefits (including $$$$$$) that they receive as MORmON celebrities.
Who should get more blessings?

The full tithe payer who gives generously, but doesn't feel that crunch/sacrifice on his/her life style?
The person who pays whatever he/she can donate, suffering and worrying over debts and bills?

The first can answer positively to being a full tithe payer, the second maybe not, but feels great sacrifice in what he or she can do.

How would Jesus feel about these two different scenarios? It's easy to sit in judgement of who is and isn't worthy, when you don't have to worry about your next meal or rent payment, even if it meant you gave up a career that earned more. I guess it means that the first has more faith than the second. The second needs to work harder, suffer in silence, and count your many blessings :roll: .

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blazerb
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Re: The true order of tithing

Post by blazerb » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:31 am

wtfluff wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:14 pm
blazerb wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:44 am
GA's could make more money working at real jobs as executives in companies
I'm gong to add a big FLUFFY caveat to the above statment:

SOME GA's could make more money working at real jobs as executives in companies.

The group of really old guys at the top should have retired many years ago, and they should be living off of their own retirement savings.

Instead, they live off what should be the retirement savings of their followers, while wallowing around in the other perks and benefits (including $$$$$$) that they receive as MORmON celebrities.
You're right. Even some of working age benefit from having the right relatives.

When you work out how much money I'd have to have in the bank to get the steady income for the rest of my life, it is clear that these guys have the equivalent of several million in the bank. It's sickening.

I listened to the interview of Kate Kelly with the Midnight Mormons. Kwaku made the argument that we should not worry about GA's getting 6 figure salaries because of the lifetime of unpaid service they have given. I was really p***ed off. What about my unpaid service? What about my parents'? What about the unpaid service of so many people that I love? Unlike Alma, these guys can't say they have never received a senine for their religious work.

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