'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
Post Reply
User avatar
jfro18
Posts: 2064
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by jfro18 » Wed May 12, 2021 8:03 pm

As DW and I try to come up with a plan to navigate our kid going back to in-person church and allowing me to give him "lessons" on what I've learned and why I have come to my conclusions, we of course got into an argument about the church being true and why I am nervous about sending our kid back.

At one point she said "Do you think i could ever be happy outside of the church" to which I said yes, because as much as it sucks to tackle all of it, most people find happiness outside of it especially when they're not alone in leaving.

That of course did not go over well, and in a lot of ways really cuts at what keeps so many people from being open to even looking at the info. The church has us conditioned to think that we are nothing without it, and it's just so depressing. It's so sad to hear DW say she would be a terrible person without the church, and no amount of me telling her that I know she's a good person regardless can change that.

And that's a big reason I am so terrified of my kid getting active and involved- he is a very anxious kid who is always needing validation that he is a good kid who is doing enough, and this is a church that constantly is telling you that you're never doing enough for it... it can lead to a lot of extra anxiety and I know for a lot of people it can put a lot of unnecessary pressure on people throughout their lives.

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by moksha » Wed May 12, 2021 9:44 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:03 pm
And that's a big reason I am so terrified of my kid getting active and involved- he is a very anxious kid who is always needing validation that he is a good kid who is doing enough, and this is a church that constantly is telling you that you're never doing enough for it... it can lead to a lot of extra anxiety and I know for a lot of people it can put a lot of unnecessary pressure on people throughout their lives.
Imagine if it has been suggested that you and your kid be detained on the SeaOrg ship by Scientology practitioners until you both became less suppressive people and harkened unto the words of David Miscavige. Your wife could not even fathom what she would be like without Scientology's helpful E-meter ridding her body of Operational Thetans.

Of course, you would want to pass on this cult to future generations in the hope they could have the emotional stability of Tom Cruise
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

hmb
Posts: 452
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:43 am

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by hmb » Thu May 13, 2021 4:33 am

jfro18 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:03 pm
It's so sad to hear DW say she would be a terrible person without the church, and no amount of me telling her that I know she's a good person regardless can change that.
When it finally imploded for me, I was surprised that I was still a good person without the church. Without the reward of an afterlife, I figured I'd lie, cheat, or steal because there's no hell to pay. But nothing has really changed in the person I am. I still genuinely care about people, though I'm an introvert. I still have a conscience and would not cheat, steal or blatantly lie. All of this was a real surprise to me, so I know where your wife is coming from. Those without the one true church live on sandy foundations. She would be giving up her rock.

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2237
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by Palerider » Thu May 13, 2021 8:34 am

Jfro your wife needs to know about the old Boy Scout tree limb trick. It's sold to the tenderfoot as a test of bravery and obedience.

The older scouts take a tenderfoot and lay him on a board tightly blindfolded. Then they take him to a tree that has a low lying limb about 5-6 feet off the ground.

They hoist him up the tree making it sound and feel as if they're taking him far up, when in reality he's not above that five foot limb. Then he's ordered/helped to crawl off the board onto the limb and let himself hang on it with a promise that they'll come out and pull him back up when he's finished his test of strength, bravery and faith.

Thinking he's 15 or 20 feet off the ground, they allow him to hang there until he begins to cry for help because he can't hang on any longer. Finally, in anguish he has to let go and falls only a foot or so to the ground.

Everyone has a good laugh and no real harm is done... but in reality there was a moment there where that poor kid experienced true terror as he fell through 12 inches of space.

It's a cruel joke in my opinion.

But that seems to be the experience of most members leaving the church. They have this sensation of free fall for just a moment until they hit the ground realizing that they are actually safe, going to survive and that the imagined danger was exactly that. Imagined. The fear is in their hearts and their heads, not in reality.

People who truly love honesty, integrity, virtue, etc., still love all of those attributes after leaving the church. Leaving the church does not change character. Only we can do that to ourselves.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
jfro18
Posts: 2064
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by jfro18 » Thu May 13, 2021 8:52 am

Palerider wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:34 am
But that seems to be the experience of most members leaving the church. They have this sensation of free fall for just a moment until they hit the ground realizing that they are actually safe, going to survive and that the imagined danger was exactly that. Imagined. The fear is in their hearts and their heads, not in reality.

People who truly love honesty, integrity, virtue, etc., still love all of those attributes after leaving the church. Leaving the church does not change character. Only we can do that to ourselves.
I think this is about right - it's the joke that you get out of the boat and you're already on dry land.

She is at a point where she would rather get a divorce than talk about it, so I guess she'll hear me go over this stuff with our kid and then she'll either divorce me or maybe actually entertain some of it... we'll see.

User avatar
fetchface
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by fetchface » Thu May 13, 2021 10:03 am

This is a very powerful trick the church plays on people, making it seem that happiness only exists inside the system.

I think what really set me up for my disaffection was that I started consciously noticing that I was never more miserable than when I was doing everything the church asked of me. When I was EQP and had a house full of toddlers, I started having thoughts about how restful death would be, etc. It really bothered me at the time because it seemed like I could never be happy inside the church.

It isn't an easy idea to counter from the outside, though. You kind of have to come to that realization yourself.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 4144
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by Red Ryder » Thu May 13, 2021 11:28 am

It sounds like it’s time to negotiate a joint sabbatical or 90 day No Mo challenge.

Ask her to give you a 90 day test run to see if she CAN be happy outside of the church. After 90 days, if she isn’t happy then she can return.

But it has to be 90 days out. No garments, no attendance, no BoM reading, etc.

Non-Mormon for 90 days.

She can continue to be a Christian whatever that looks like for her.

Then reciprocate and be all in as a Mormon for 90 day’s
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

User avatar
græy
Posts: 1339
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:52 pm
Location: Central TX

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by græy » Thu May 13, 2021 12:32 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 11:28 am
It sounds like it’s time to negotiate a joint sabbatical or 90 day No Mo challenge.

Ask her to give you a 90 day test run to see if she CAN be happy outside of the church. After 90 days, if she isn’t happy then she can return.

But it has to be 90 days out. No garments, no attendance, no BoM reading, etc.

Non-Mormon for 90 days.

She can continue to be a Christian whatever that looks like for her.

Then reciprocate and be all in as a Mormon for 90 day’s
As fair and equitable as this solution sounds, I doubt anyone in jfro's wife's position would go for it. My wife certainly wouldn't and she has been much more open to hearing, though not accepting, my reasons for disbelief.

To a TBM, going 90 days without church attendance, without scriptures, without wearing garments is more than just "taking a break". In their view that is actively choosing to throw out God for 90 days. Even if they felt happy moments or even happier in general during that time, there would always be that voice in their heads whispering, "You're only feeling happy because God has withdrawn his spirit which would normally prompt you to do/be better. You're not happy, you're hollow."
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 4144
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by Red Ryder » Thu May 13, 2021 12:45 pm

Exactly Graey!

We would have to clarify that the 90 day challenge would be centered around giving up the organizational aspect of the Mormon church and not God.

This should point out that Mormonism isn’t the only pathway to worship God.

Any TBM confident in their belief in God should be able to continue that relationship. If they can’t then the 90 challenge has exposed where their true belief is.😇

Do they believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ or in the Mormon church? A 90 day challenge can sort this out.

Ps... Here’s a hint: Jesus didn’t wear garments with Masonic symbols, or did he?
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

User avatar
græy
Posts: 1339
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:52 pm
Location: Central TX

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by græy » Thu May 13, 2021 1:07 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 12:45 pm
We would have to clarify that the 90 day challenge would be centered around giving up the organizational aspect of the Mormon church and not God.
Any TBM confident in their belief in God should be able to continue that relationship. If they can’t then the 90 challenge has exposed where their true belief is.😇

Do they believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ or in the Mormon church? A 90 day challenge can sort this out.
But... but but but but... the Mormon church == Jesus Christ == God!! Any TBM who's really TBM knows you can't throw out the bathwater without also throwing out the baby!

edit: To be clear. I agree with you absolutely on this. But at least in my case, this whole conversation would be a non-starter. I wouldn't even get the chance to explain giving up the organization doesn't equate to giving up God. Its just inconceivable!
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 4144
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by Red Ryder » Thu May 13, 2021 2:02 pm

I get it.

I’m married to a TBM!

What???? You want me to take my garments off? The cog dis pushes out all rational thought.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

User avatar
jfro18
Posts: 2064
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by jfro18 » Thu May 13, 2021 3:05 pm

Yeah there is zero chance she would ever be open to a "church break" where she could put that to the test. It doesn't help that her parents and some siblings are so manipulative with her and church, but she is just not even in a spot where she could even consider it to not be true.

She had asked me to do the overview project, because she said if I thought I could prove the church is not true that she wanted to see it. It's pretty much done and she has absolutely no interest in looking at it, so that's a good indicator of where she's at.

It's really depressing to see, but it is what it is. At least I get to teach our kid a lesson each Sunday when he goes back to in-person, so that will be interesting to see how she responds to that because while I'm not going to go scorched earth on the church, I'm going to highlight some issues I have with that weeks CFM lesson and why I think critical thinking is important to assess the claims.

Every time we talk about church stuff it's more depressing than the last, because she continues to get more retrenched and I think she reads a lot of DezNat types on Twitter which is not helping... it's got a very clear parallel to those in politics who believe some crazy things because they find that community online.

User avatar
Linked
Posts: 1533
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by Linked » Thu May 13, 2021 4:48 pm

That's hard jfro! It's interesting that she would ask that question, because it's a question I am sure you would love her to sincerely consider in good faith. But she did not mean it that way. There does not appear to be space in her mind/soul for a good faith discussion about being out of the church.

What she was saying is probably more of a statement, "I could never be happy outside the church. Only inside the church is true happiness. Why am I stuck in a position where I have to consider this? I did and continue to do all the right things but my fairy tale went off the rails anyway. My eternal family is broken."

I know intimately how painful this message is to hear repeatedly. I'm sorry you keep getting it thrown at you. You seem like a good dude and you deserve better. I hope your DW comes around and can see beyond her need to do what the church tells her.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 1934
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by deacon blues » Thu May 13, 2021 5:35 pm

Palerider wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:34 am
Jfro your wife needs to know about the old Boy Scout tree limb trick. It's sold to the tenderfoot as a test of bravery and obedience.

The older scouts take a tenderfoot and lay him on a board tightly blindfolded. Then they take him to a tree that has a low lying limb about 5-6 feet off the ground.

They hoist him up the tree making it sound and feel as if they're taking him far up, when in reality he's not above that five foot limb. Then he's ordered/helped to crawl off the board onto the limb and let himself hang on it with a promise that they'll come out and pull him back up when he's finished his test of strength, bravery and faith.

Thinking he's 15 or 20 feet off the ground, they allow him to hang there until he begins to cry for help because he can't hang on any longer. Finally, in anguish he has to let go and falls only a foot or so to the ground.

Everyone has a good laugh and no real harm is done... but in reality there was a moment there where that poor kid experienced true terror as he fell through 12 inches of space.

It's a cruel joke in my opinion.

But that seems to be the experience of most members leaving the church. They have this sensation of free fall for just a moment until they hit the ground realizing that they are actually safe, going to survive and that the imagined danger was exactly that. Imagined. The fear is in their hearts and their heads, not in reality.

People who truly love honesty, integrity, virtue, etc., still love all of those attributes after leaving the church. Leaving the church does not change character. Only we can do that to ourselves.
Wow, Pale- where did you hear of this? I agree. I do think church leaders tell members that there is no happiness outside the Church, but they are wrong. I have been happier since I left the Church than I was before. I like to think that when I go back to Church with my wife- which I do about once a month, first to show I support her, and second to visit with neighbors- that I am demonstrating there is happiness outside the Church. I don't say much because we all know Church is not a free speech zone.
I am still finding fulfillment in life. My interaction with my LDS neighbors hasn't changed much once I had turned down several requests to "come in" (to the bishop) for a talk. I also think my NOM daughter is finding happiness.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2237
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by Palerider » Thu May 13, 2021 7:31 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 5:35 pm

Wow, Pale- where did you hear of this? I agree. I do think church leaders tell members that there is no happiness outside the Church....
One of the older kids in my ward scouting troop told me about it when I was about 12 years old.

There seemed to be a lot of things done back in those days that kids/people thought were funny at the expense of the unsuspecting. I never cared for that type of "humor".

Mormons now would be shocked at some of the things I saw that people thought were "OK" in my Mormon community. Old timey Mormons were actually a pretty rough bunch.

I'm glad your daughter is doing well and I think it's great that you attend once in awhile with your wife. I bet she appreciates it.
And I bet there's some ward officers who still think there's hope for you some day.

Little do they know..... ;)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7076
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by Hagoth » Thu May 13, 2021 8:20 pm

græy wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 12:32 pm
As fair and equitable as this solution sounds, I doubt anyone in jfro's wife's position would go for it.
The problem with it is that the other person is more concerned about what God thinks of them. Surely there will be hell to pay for even thinking you could just take a vacation from the pressure cooker. From a believers' standpoint, if you enjoy the 90 days and decide to stay away from church you have become the worst thing imaginable - a freakin' apostate!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
2bizE
Posts: 2405
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by 2bizE » Thu May 13, 2021 8:21 pm

I think a key to moving on is developing healthy relationships with people outside of church. There is nothing more productive than to go out to dinner or another even with a couple that is happy and not Mormon. The icing on the cupcake would be that this couple looks Mormon in every way and the TBM spouse thinks they are Mormon...and later finds out this happy couple is not LDS. Maybe we need a friendship circle where we can do things with happy non-Mormon couples?
~2bizE

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7076
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by Hagoth » Thu May 13, 2021 8:30 pm

Palerider wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:31 pm
There seemed to be a lot of things done back in those days that kids/people thought were funny at the expense of the unsuspecting. I never cared for that type of "humor".
You wouldn't make a good Mason either. That trick is also part of a masonic initiation. Instead of a tree, they make you walk a plank while blindfolded. You think the plank is held high over the heads of a line of men when they tip you off, but it's really only a few inches off the ground. One of solemn, dignified, sacred rituals, along with buttocks shocking, being paddled while climbing a rope, being slashed with a dagger that's really a piece of ice, and walking across an electrified carpet.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 3630
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Post by wtfluff » Thu May 13, 2021 9:03 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:30 pm
You wouldn't make a good Mason either. That trick is also part of a masonic initiation. Instead of a tree, they make you walk a plank while blindfolded. You think the plank is held high over the heads of a line of men when they tip you off, but it's really only a few inches off the ground. One of solemn, dignified, sacred rituals, along with buttocks shocking, being paddled while climbing a rope, being slashed with a dagger that's really a piece of ice, and walking across an electrified carpet.
Sheesh. I guess us Fake MORmON Polygamist Mason's had it easy. :cry:
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 51 guests