Staying in Hong Kong vs staying in the church

[sparky]

If you've been following the news over the past year or so, you've probably heard about the Chinese Communist Party cracking down on democracy in Hong Kong. They instituted a "national security" law that basically gives them carte blanche to arrest and imprison anyone they deem a threat to communist rule. A lot of Hong Kong residents are fleeing to other countries, and others are trying to hold on to the only country they've ever known. Last week's episode of This American Life had a segment by a current resident of Hong Kong who is having an internal struggle of if and when she will leave. Here's the link, the full 15 minutes is worth your time. So much of what she says resonated with me and my internal struggle as a NOM, a complete nonbeliever struggling with whether I will ever be able to leave this all behind and find a new life in a new "country."

For example, she talks about people there having a point of no return, "a point when the situation deteriorates so irrevocably that leaving is the only option." For some of her friends, it would be when Hong Kong is forced to write in simplified Chinese characters, or when police shoot protestors. It made me wonder, what would my point of no return be for leaving the church? What would it take for me to put my foot down and finally opt out? I think of the horrible things the church does, the way it treats the LGBT community, the way it spiritually "shoots protestors" via excommunication, the entrenched patriarchy, the lies, the wealth hoarding and insistence on vacuuming up more from even the poorest members. I ask myself, if that's not enough, what would be? I think it would have to be something pretty extreme, like requiring members to gather in Missouri, or having a big re-baptism requirement to show your commitment like in the 1800s. If you're still in, what would your point of no return be?

She talks about having to compartmentalize to keep her sanity. She can't read the news at work because it will derail her for the rest of the day. I have to say this has definitely happened to me when I read about the latest outrage or scandal on Reddit.

Then there's this:

Sometimes the reason you want to leave isn't related to danger. It isn't that you give up. It isn't that you think being somewhere else will bring you a better life. It's that your heart can't take it any more. Maybe what will get me to leave is not fear, but fatigue.

This hit me hard. I'm not in danger, I fit the Mormon mold just fine (married, cis, hetero white male). She later points out that "the fact that I'm having this internal debate is a privilege." I haven't had the horrible experiences of marginalization that I know many people have. And I don't think my life would improve that much if I leave; in fact it would probably be tough with the family alienation I expect. And yet I am exhausted with it all, and sometimes I think my heart can't take going to one more meeting, hearing one more weepy testimony, teaching one more primary lesson. I just want to put the backpack full of useless rocks down and not have to pick it up again. But so far my cowardice outweighs my fatigue.

She talks about how schools are starting to indoctrinate children into the CCP ideology and build enthusiasm for joining the police force to protect "national security," and how she couldn't bear to send her children to Hong Kong schools under those conditions. Like her I don't have children yet, but I dread the day I have to send them off to primary. I have no idea how I will deal with this or how to teach them a healthy, correct worldview when they are being fed all the nonsense.

And the ending is very relatable for us NOMs and exmos:

We often speak of Hong Kong disappearing as a doomsday scenario, as though the city would submerge underwater like Atlantis. It is much more likely that one day in the near future, the Hong Kong cityscape will not look unlike how it had in 2020, but there will be nobody here who remembers the place that once existed. This is what I fear most, that the skyscrapers will remain intact, the countryside hikes still beautiful, and the harbor rippling with night lights. That you can still go to work and have afternoon tea at hotels, and outwardly you can't tell anything is wrong, but the only ones left here are those who believe this is the best version of Hong Kong there could ever be.

This is what the church is going through. More and more people are reaching their point of no return, and that's leaving behind people who are okay with the status quo as leaders and teachers and influencers. This is why the church changes so infuriatingly slowly.

And finally this:

We talk about the question of staying or leaving like there is a right or wrong answer, a clever or irrational choice. But there's really only one question--whether or not you're ready to say goodbye. And I know I'm not ready yet. For now, I choose limbo.

Personally I have long been ready to say goodbye to the church forever. But for now, I am choosing limbo, maybe at the cost of my own integrity and mental health, but for now it is worth it to me to stay with my wife, my best friend, in the only country she has ever known and loved. I will be ready to leave if she ever is.

[Red Ryder]

Personally I have long been ready to say goodbye to the church forever. But for now, I am choosing limbo, maybe at the cost of my own integrity and mental health, but for now it is worth it to me to stay with my wife, my best friend, in the only country she has ever known and loved. I will be ready to leave if she ever is.

Sparky! Excellent post.

I chose limbo 15 years ago and some days I regret that decision while other days I’m perfectly happy I did. It does take a toll on our mental health but only to an extent you let it.

Never question your integrity. Maybe your sanity? You’re simply choosing the best option for you.

Over time, if you can dilute the country by traveling to other parts of the world you can find some progressive movement. My wife isn’t the TBM she once was but has recognized the faults of her church. She simply finds an emotional appeal to it that I don’t. And that’s fine with us. I still attend although about 30% of the time now just to sit with her and hold her hand. Then we go back to the rest of our lives until Sunday comes around once again.

At some point the church has become unrecognizable to us that lived it for so long. I’m ok with that and hope it continues to change. At least to be better at accepting its former members and teaching its current members to not shun those of us that have left or at a minimum have mentally checked out.

[2bizE]

I’m not sure where the line in the sand is for me and the church. I think if one of my children identified as LGBTQ I would leave the church…I think my wife might as well.

[moksha]

A few things to note:

1.4 billion people live in China and seem to be doing fine. The British had a couple of centuries and the United States had the 20th Century. This will be the Chinese century. As long as the Hong Kongers do not protest, they will flourish. They are already designated as a first-tier city. Although China does not have the safety net of the US (and even less so than the European countries) it does have capitalism down pat and is flush with money. Bright new buildings and an infrastructure of railroads we can only dream about. I think the crime rate is even lower than in Hong Kong.

Your point of Hong Kong public schools and Primary is well taken. Fortunately for your future kids, Primary need only be an option. Thank goodness the Church does not have the power to crush all opposing thoughts. If however the power of Trumpism succeeds and America topples, the Kingdom of Deseret is waiting in the wings along with the rule of Ammon Bundy. When Bundy cattle start grazing in Liberty Park, it will be our cue to emigrate to Canada.

[Corsair]

Thank goodness the Church does not have the power to crush all opposing thoughts. If however the power of Trumpism succeeds and America topples, the Kingdom of Deseret is waiting in the wings along with the rule of Ammon Bundy.

This is a crucial realization. The modern LDS church has no power whatsoever once you firmly tell it "No" and walk away. We cannot forget that 19th century Utah territory under Brigham, John, and Wilford had far fewer compunctions against exerting their will. Certainly we get guilt trips and social pressure, but we have the critical advantage that the LDS church has no power to force us through physical coercion.