Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

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jfro18
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Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by jfro18 » Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:34 pm

Holland's talk to BYU faculty/staff took aim at the LGBT community and the support among some for it, calling for more "musket fire" to be aimed at those who support same-sex marriage:
Then Elder Oaks said challengingly, “I would like to hear a little more musket fire from this temple of learning.” He said this in a way that could have applied to a host of topics in various departments, but the one he specifically mentioned was the doctrine of the family and defending marriage as the union of a man and a woman. Little did he know that while many would hear his appeal, especially the School of Family Life who moved quickly and visibly to assist, some others fired their muskets all right, but unfortunately didn’t always aim at those hostile to the church. A couple of stray rounds even went north of the point of the mountain!

My beloved brothers and sisters, “a house divided against itself . . . cannot stand,” and I will go to my grave pleading that this institution not only stands but stands unquestionably committed to its unique academic mission and to the church that sponsors it. 22:55 We hope it isn’t a surprise to you that your trustees are not deaf or blind to the feelings that swirl around marriage and the whole same-sex topic on campus. I and many of my brethren have spent more time and shed more tears on this subject than we could ever adequately convey to you this morning, or any morning. We have spent hours discussing what the doctrine of the church can and cannot provide the individuals and families struggling over this difficult issue. So, it is with scar tissue of our own that we are trying to avoid — and hope all will try to avoid — language, symbols, and situations that are more divisive than unifying at the very time we want to show love for all of God’s children.

If a student commandeers a graduation podium intended to represent everyone getting diplomas in order to announce his personal sexual orientation, what might another speaker feel free to announce the next year until eventually anything goes? What might commencement come to mean — or not mean — if we push individual license over institutional dignity for very long? Do we simply end up with more divisiveness in our culture than we already have? And we already have too much everywhere.

In that spirit, let me go no farther before declaring unequivocally my love and that of my brethren for those who live with this same-sex challenge and so much complexity that goes with it. Too often the world has been unkind, in many instances crushingly cruel, to these our brothers and sisters. Like many of you, we have spent hours with them, and wept and prayed and wept again in an effort to offer love and hope while keeping the gospel strong and the obedience to commandments evident in every individual life.

But it will assist everyone in providing such help if things can be kept in some proportion and balance in the process. For example, we have to be careful that love and empathy do not get interpreted as condoning and advocacy, or that orthodoxy and loyalty to principle not be interpreted as unkindness or disloyalty to people. As near as I can tell, Christ never once withheld his love from anyone, but he also never once said to anyone, “Because I love you, you are exempt from keeping my commandments.” We are tasked with trying to strike that same sensitive, demanding balance in our lives.

Musket fire? Yes, we will always need defenders of the faith, but “friendly fire” is a tragedy — and from time to time the church, its leaders and some of our colleagues within the university community have taken such fire on this campus. And sometimes it isn’t friendly — wounding students and the parents of students who are confused about what so much recent flag-waving and parade-holding on this issue means. Beloved friends, this kind of confusion and conflict ought not to be.

My brethren have made the case for the metaphor of musket fire, which I have endorsed yet again today. There will continue to be those who oppose our teachings and with that will continue the need to define, document, and defend the faith. But we do all look forward to the day when we can “beat our swords into plowshares, and [our] spears into pruning hooks,” and at least on this subject, “learn war [no] more.” And while I have focused on this same-sex topic this morning more than I would have liked, I pray you will see it as emblematic of a lot of issues our students and community face in this complex, contemporary world of ours.
Full transcript @ https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/08 ... ill-stand/

I cannot believe they're still trying to jump in front of a moving train like this, but here they are.

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moksha
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by moksha » Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:09 pm

It has something to do with shaking out the wheat, so the tares can remain obedient to their leaders and pay even more tithes.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Red Ryder
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:16 pm

Love this part. Inserted bold emphasis mine :lol:
Someone once told me that the young speak of the future because they have no past, while the elderly speak of the past because they have no future. Although it damages that little aphorism, I come to you as the veritable Ancient of Days to speak of the future of BYU, but a future anchored in our distinctive past. If I have worded that right, it means I can talk... out of my ass...about anything I want.
Holland is kissing Oaks’ ass by quoting him and his musket fire speech. He’s brought up a concern that the youth are going to BYU only to lose their faith and is blaming this loss on “progressive issues” of the day. ie. Homosexuality.

Holland must be aligning with Oaks to get in the FP. How much do you want to believe Oaks probably called Jeff up and ordered him to speak as a test of loyalty?
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Advocate
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Advocate » Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:26 am

+1 on the musket fire being a terrible analogy.

It seems to me, that this man who claims the title of prophet, seer, and revelator, is looking for help in the homosexual fight because he, and none of his cohorts, seem to be able to do any prophesying, seeing, or revealing as to why homosexuality is such a terrible scourge. So instead of getting answers from God, he is asking BYU faculty and students to create arguments that can be used to justify the church's position against homosexuality.

I think people are seeing, and perhaps those at the top of the church are also seeing, that the typical argument that church leaders give in these sort of cultural-moral issues isn't working with younger (and lots of older) people. To be clear, the typical argument they use for these sort of cultural-moral issues is that the position is heart-breaking, terrible, and so sad, but we can't do anything about it because God made the decision. You see? It isn't the leaders of the church that are homophobes (or the leaders from yesteryear that were racists), it is God that is a homophobe (and God of yesteryear that was a racist). The leaders of the church have their hands tied. They love gay people and want to change the rules, but that jerk God won't let them.

These sort of arguments don't seem to be working anymore (people say if the mormon God is a homophobe, why would I worship him?), so the leaders of the church are asking for help to find new arguments that might keep people in the church. What they fail to see is that there are no good arguments, so church leaders receive "friendly fire" from BYU professors who have some intellectual honesty.

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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by nibbler » Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:51 am

Ultra-conservative members get upset at urgings to wear a mask and get vaccinated? Time to publicly remind the church of the status of liberal members to reel the ultra-conservatives back in.
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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Not Buying It
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Not Buying It » Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:52 am

Hey, leave Jeff alone. He's not a dodo. He's read a few books and he's been to a pretty good school.

What Matt Easton did was incredibly brave. What Holland did was incredibly petty and petulant.

Bastard. I really don't have much else to say about him right now, other than to affirm that he is indeed a terrible human being.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by moksha » Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:02 am

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do to their fellows because it always coincides with their own desires.
— Susan B. Anthony
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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annotatedbom
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by annotatedbom » Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:40 am

Advocate wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:26 am
What they fail to see is that there are no good arguments [against homosexuality/same-sex marriage], so church leaders receive "friendly fire" from BYU professors who have some intellectual honesty.
With all due respect Advocate, Elder Oaks himself came up with this genius-level argument that annihilates any stand for homosexuality or same-sex marriage:
One generation o f homosexual "marriages" would depopulate a nation, and , if sufficiently widespread, would extinguish its people. Our marriage laws should not abet national suicide.
Memo: Principles to Govern Possible Public Statement on Legislation Affecting Rights of Homosexuals.
Non-sequitur and slippery-slope fallacy much? Fear monger much?

So yeah, you're right Advocate. That memo, and pretty much all their arguments against same-sex marriage, are full of shit like that.

I finally feel like I am done with Mormonism - like I can just leave it alone - but dammit, they won't leave people alone. How many individuals in the world and in the Church do these men condemn as broken or less-than simply because the individuals are LGBTQAI? That alone is enough for me to set the record straight (haha, punny) when it comes to the Church. But, in addition to that, one of my children is queer, so la Iglesia gets no free pass from me.

In fact, my wife is still a believing Mormon. If the leaders of the Church keep barking up this tree, their ignorance and fear of the queer will likely be the thing that gets my wife to see they are pathetic old men, so bring it Dallin, Jeffrey, et. al.
I wish I were as good looking as Chris Cornell.
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by blazerb » Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:51 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:16 pm
Holland is kissing Oaks’ ass by quoting him and his musket fire speech. He’s brought up a concern that the youth are going to BYU only to lose their faith and is blaming this loss on “progressive issues” of the day. ie. Homosexuality.

Holland must be aligning with Oaks to get in the FP. How much do you want to believe Oaks probably called Jeff up and ordered him to speak as a test of loyalty?
It's absurd. He quotes Oaks who is quoting Maxwell. Why not just quote Maxwell? I guess that wouldn't stroke the ego of the current presidency enough.

I am astonished that he would try to claim that the church's position on LGBTQ+ persons is "unifying." This talk is so ugly.

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glass shelf
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by glass shelf » Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:17 pm

Jeffrey Holland is definitely a terrible human being.

Sometimes I think i might need to go to therapy to deal with feelings of shame and deep regret that it took me so long to see what Mormonism really is. Other times, i think I'm doing okay. The fact that I could change so much gives me hope for other people.

But not Jeffrey Holland.

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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by blazerb » Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:52 am

I was listening to a commentary. It hit me that Holland declares himself at the beginning of the talk the "Ancient of Days." He may not be aware that this is a title for God in most of the Christian world, but I doubt it. He is setting up his authority equal to God. It is similar to the way he started his talk at the Maxwell Institute by saying he was coming in his "true identity as an apostle of Jesus Christ." There he was referencing the temple, of course.

Is it always Holland who calls BYU employees to repentance?

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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Palerider » Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:10 am

blazerb wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:52 am
I was listening to a commentary. It hit me that Holland declares himself at the beginning of the talk the "Ancient of Days." He may not be aware that this is a title for God in most of the Christian world, but I doubt it. He is setting up his authority equal to God. It is similar to the way he started his talk at the Maxwell Institute by saying he was coming in his "true identity as an apostle of Jesus Christ." There he was referencing the temple, of course.

Is it always Holland who calls BYU employees to repentance?
When I read that statement, "Ancient of Days", I thought it was a poor attempt at humor. Going on about how old he's getting. He needs to back off the "it's all about me" thing and just get on with his unwavering defense of the indefensible.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Hagoth » Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:48 am

But we do all look forward to the day when we can “beat our swords into plowshares, and [our] spears into pruning hooks,”
Well, then just f**king do it! Apparently your understanding of this verse is that we make the plowshares only after we have killed our enemies with the sword. Jesus said, "suffer the little children to come unto me. Except the queer ones. Muskets and pitchforks for them."

My son read me some responses from members gushing about how much love and acceptance this talk shows to the LGBTQ community. I guess they interpret it the same way they interpret the BoM's example of love and acceptance for people with dark skin.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by jfro18 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:50 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:48 am
But we do all look forward to the day when we can “beat our swords into plowshares, and [our] spears into pruning hooks,”
Well, then just f**king do it! Apparently your understanding of this verse is that we make the plowshares only after we have killed our enemies with the sword. Jesus said, "suffer the little children to come unto me. Except the queer ones. Muskets and pitchforks for them."

My son read me some responses from members gushing about how much love and acceptance this talk shows to the LGBTQ community. I guess they interpret it the same way they interpret the BoM's example of love and acceptance for people with dark skin.
Yeah I've seen a lot of responses that have said that they can't believe how much acceptance and love Holland is striving for.

This talk reminds me of D&C 132 or the Happiness Letter where Joseph Smith would sprinkle in these amazing promises in-between the threats to those who don't obey. And members are cherry picking the kind lines out of the speech and just ignoring that he literally told the faculty to get more musket fire against those who support LGBT rights.

It's absolutely insane.

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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by 2bizE » Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:29 am

I wonder what statistical report JRH was reading prior to giving this speech that through him over the edge? Perhaps tithing reports? Maybe the attrition rate of young people?
~2bizE

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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:55 am

My nephew's response to Holland's talk was to come out on Facebook. Thing is, he's recently married -- to a woman -- and she also made a long post. They both talked about their faith in the gospel and the priesthood and their support of the brethren . . . you can all fill in the rest, I'm sure.

I've long suspected this nephew was gay and worried about him because his family is the hardest of hard core Mormons. The posts really disturbed me (someone shared his in a Facebook group I'm in and said she was "disgusted" by it). My heart is broken and I just woke up from a night of grim, evil dreams of parents mistreating their babies.
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.

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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by jfro18 » Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:03 am

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:55 am
My nephew's response to Holland's talk was to come out on Facebook. Thing is, he's recently married -- to a woman -- and she also made a long post.
This was something I never encountered until I started the 'deep dive' into Mormonism and it's amazing how many of these stories you see.

People marry someone of the opposite sex because they feel like God wants them to. Not because of love, but because of what the church and family tell them is the only way.

And the really angering thing is that not only does this deprive the person who is gay of a life of happiness, but it really steals from the other spouse because they are married into a lie no matter how well intentioned.

This is not to bash your nephew at all - I don't blame him one bit because he was raised to think this is the only way, but this is where the church can be downright evil in how they make people do things that really harm not just themselves but those that they marry and the kids who will be stuck in the middle of what could be a very traumatic experience down the road when the truth comes out.

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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by MoPag » Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:58 am

Okay. I just watched the whole thing. I cannot believe he stood up in a school, in front of a room full of educators, in this post Columbine, post Sandy Hook world, and called for more gunfire?!?!? I know it's a metaphor, but it's a really really horrifying one. And he really should have been able to see that. And he should know that there are radicals in his own religion who would happily choose to not see it as a metaphor. Yuck!!!

His joke about Liz Taylor's "many'' husbands...umm dude...You're at BRIGHAM YOUNG University!!! Pretty sure his spouse count is just a liiiitttllle higher than Liz's.

That letter from the alumnus was basically like: "I'm really tired of feeling guilty about hating marginalized groups. It's really hard on ME when the people I'm looking down on are sad about me looking down on them. So instead of facing my own insecurities and prejudices and working harder to follow Christ's example of love and inclusion, I think you should make the faculty at BYU shut up and make the gays shut up too. Or I won't give you anymore money."

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Then he's like: "The brethren have spent hours thinking about the gays...we have to protect the family....blah blah..."

The icing on the dog food cake was him "looking forward to the day when we can beat our swords into plow shares..." Dude YOU were just calling for musket fire like 5 minutes ago.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Hagoth
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Hagoth » Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:05 am

There's a good (and surprisingly short!) MormonStories episode about this whole fiasco. One of the guests is from a podcast that I was not familiar with called LatterGayStories. He has a project that I think is wonderful. You've probably heard about this but it was new to me. After the rainbow-colored lighting of the Y a group of Deznat types decided to start showing up on campus with umbrellas to show that they are resisting the "rainbow storm." In response, the LatterGayStories guy bought thousands of rainbow-colored umbrellas and gave them out to students.

They have an ongoing project in which they donate a rainbow or transgender color umbrella to an LGBTQ-friendly campus (BYU and other campuses) organization for every one they sell online. I bought one of each. If you are interested, the order page is here:

https://lattergaystories.org/umbrella/? ... G0bKHNiB8U
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Just This Guy
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:15 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:05 am
They have an ongoing project in which they donate a rainbow or transgender color umbrella to an LGBTQ-friendly campus (BYU and other campuses) organization for every one they sell online. I bought one of each. If you are interested, the order page is here:

https://lattergaystories.org/umbrella/? ... G0bKHNiB8U
Thanks for the heads up Hagoth!

I've got two new umbrella's on order. I will say it takes a few minutes for order confirmation to come through.
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