Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

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sparky
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by sparky » Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:09 pm

But we do all look forward to the day when we can “beat our swords into plowshares, and [our] spears into pruning hooks,” and at least on this subject, “learn war [no] more.”
I sincerely wonder what he's getting at here. What does he think it will take for the culture war on this issue to be over and done? Certainly he's not expecting the church to lay down arms and accept LGBT folk as they are. So what does he want to happen? All the gays go back in the closet? Roll back the clocks to the 1950s? It's not going to happen, and it's a damn good thing that so much progress has been made. The church isn't going to win this "war," gay kids aren't going to magically stop being born in LDS families. This man is delusional.

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moksha
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by moksha » Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:26 am

sparky wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:09 pm
... gay kids aren't going to magically stop being born in LDS families.
Gay kids being born into LDS families as a test of their endurance.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

hmb
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by hmb » Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:14 am

moksha wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:26 am
sparky wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:09 pm
... gay kids aren't going to magically stop being born in LDS families.
Gay kids being born into LDS families as a test of their endurance.
Gay kids born to nonLDS, especially exLDS, are a consequence of sinful living.


What are you hearing from your TBM family and friends? I don't know any TBM's, where I live, so I don't hear anything. Is this inspired? I don't talk to family about anything related to the church or politics. I live far away and stay hidden. I wonder what TBM's think of this talk?

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moksha
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by moksha » Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:47 am

hmb wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:14 am
I wonder what TBM's think of this talk?
I've wondered what LDS apologists will say if any gay people are hurt because of Elder Holland calling on BYU people to engage their Musket Fire to preserve the Church's stand against the LQBTQ community.

I'm thinking that the apologists will insist that Holland actually called for the BYU faculty to have Muskrat Fur underneath the holy garments of the Temple. How could any critics tie violence to having muskrat fur?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

hmb
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by hmb » Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:20 pm

moksha wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:47 am
hmb wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:14 am
I wonder what TBM's think of this talk?
I've wondered what LDS apologists will say if any gay people are hurt because of Elder Holland calling on BYU people to engage their Musket Fire to preserve the Church's stand against the LQBTQ community.

I'm thinking that the apologists will insist that Holland actually called for the BYU faculty to have Muskrat Fur underneath the holy garments of the Temple. How could any critics tie violence to having muskrat fur?
Ahem. So is muskrat fur like hair (ya know, down there :shock: )? I'm so confused :? .

Please do not enlighten me :P.

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Corsair
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Corsair » Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:58 pm

Holland's talk certainly establishes LDS doctrine in the current day. Seeing the myriad, agonized responses among the Mormons and ex-Mormons was expected. Liberal believers are heavily torn while the conservatives agree while still torn over the vax and face-covering announcement earlier in August.

The real test will be if the NCAA kicks out BYU and no college teams want to play against BYU. An even bigger test will transpire if regional accreditation decides to imperil the raison d'etre of BYU. The institutional church carefully tolerates the endless member debates around the topic of LGBT relations as long as the status quo remains the same.

But if the accreditation of BYU is in jeopardy or the NCAA refuses to literally play ball with them, we will finally see if the church will choose a hill to die upon. This is not unlike the agonizing choices that thousands of LDS families have faced with LGBT children. But it will be write large when BYU sports teams can no longer recruit talented high school players and their play schedule only includes Biola and Bob Jones University.

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blazerb
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by blazerb » Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:37 pm

Corsair wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:58 pm
But if the accreditation of BYU is in jeopardy or the NCAA refuses to literally play ball with them, we will finally see if the church will choose a hill to die upon. This is not unlike the agonizing choices that thousands of LDS families have faced with LGBT children. But it will be write large when BYU sports teams can no longer recruit talented high school players and their play schedule only includes Biola and Bob Jones University.
I would wager that the leadership of the church would not accept losing accreditation or the cachet that comes with division 1 sports. I think Holland is asking the individual faculty at BYU to accept the risk to their careers and lives by going out on limbs to defend the church's positions. However, I also think the church would readily cut those limbs off if the respect of the world started to be lost.

It's like that poor kid who was filmed destroying the chalk art and spouting homophobic nonsense. He thought he was defending the church as Holland asked. I hear that the Honor Code Office plans to kick him out. I hope that all who think they are defending the church take notice. (Please note that I don't think the kid is completely blameless. He obviously has some atrocious views. It was the church that nurtured those views, unfortunately. I don't know what to do about people like that. If he learns from this and grows to be a better person, it won't be because of the church.)

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Hagoth
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Hagoth » Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:29 pm

Image
Look, everybody is out of step except Elder Holland!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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2bizE
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by 2bizE » Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:53 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:29 pm
Image
Look, everybody is out of step except Elder Holland!
This Pat Bagley cartoon is spot on.
~2bizE

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2bizE
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by 2bizE » Sat Aug 28, 2021 10:00 pm

Two words come to mind: Irresponsible and Irrelevant.
Do you think the Q15 have any idea that they are becoming more and more irrelevant?
They seem to live in their own bubble where they only hear and see the nice things people say about them…
A growing crowd is just rolling their eyes at Elder Holland and just going on with life.
~2bizE

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MoPag
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by MoPag » Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:52 am

hmb wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:14 am
moksha wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:26 am
sparky wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:09 pm
... gay kids aren't going to magically stop being born in LDS families.
Gay kids being born into LDS families as a test of their endurance.
Gay kids born to nonLDS, especially exLDS, are a consequence of sinful living.


What are you hearing from your TBM family and friends? I don't know any TBM's, where I live, so I don't hear anything. Is this inspired? I don't talk to family about anything related to the church or politics. I live far away and stay hidden. I wonder what TBM's think of this talk?
I'm seeing a lot of :"WeLl HiS TaLk DiDn'T OfFeNd Me!!!!!!"
Well, no sh!t. He wasn't threatening straight, cis-gendered TBMs. :roll: And most TBMs lack the emotional capacity to truly empathize with people they have been taught to view as "less than."

This whole thing is just really sad.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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blazerb
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by blazerb » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:09 am

MoPag wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:52 am
I'm seeing a lot of :"WeLl HiS TaLk DiDn'T OfFeNd Me!!!!!!"
Well, no sh!t. He wasn't threatening straight, cis-gendered TBMs. :roll: And most TBMs lack the emotional capacity to truly empathize with people they have been taught to view as "less than."

This whole thing is just really sad.
I have also seen at least one post from a gay Mormon man in a mixed orientation marriage who supports Holland. I'm not sure how I would respond if I met the person in real life.

My thoughts are these: Even this man lacks the empathy for those who have different levels of libido or different places on the Kinsey scale. I can't tell this man about his own experiences, but he also does not know what other LGBTQ people are experiencing.The problem with the church's position is that it gives permission to tell other people how they feel. That's not ok.

People have also brought up the example of those like Tom Christofferson who left the church (sort of) and came back (sort of). This ignores the fact that these people lived full lives outside the church and only returned when their sex drives diminished in later years. I'm probably sounding a bit judgy here, but I hate it when men of retirement age berate 20 year-old missionaries for having a sex drive. This seems like a similar situation.

Edit: I am a cisgender heterosexual male who tries to stay out of other people's business. But I also don't like hearing others tell people how they should feel.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:30 am

Holland has created chaos in some of our family and social circles. Such divisive rhetoric and language. :lol:

The TBM’s are all saying he was taken out of context and that it was a message only for the BYU faculty. That the video was leaked by the church newsroom. WTF?

“Don’t go to BYU if you can’t live the honor code! You know the rules...”

What does the honor code have to do with inclusion ?
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Not Buying It
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Not Buying It » Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:26 am

blazerb wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:09 am
MoPag wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:52 am
I'm seeing a lot of :"WeLl HiS TaLk DiDn'T OfFeNd Me!!!!!!"
Well, no sh!t. He wasn't threatening straight, cis-gendered TBMs. :roll: And most TBMs lack the emotional capacity to truly empathize with people they have been taught to view as "less than."

This whole thing is just really sad.
I have also seen at least one post from a gay Mormon man in a mixed orientation marriage who supports Holland. I'm not sure how I would respond if I met the person in real life.

My thoughts are these: Even this man lacks the empathy for those who have different levels of libido or different places on the Kinsey scale. I can't tell this man about his own experiences, but he also does not know what other LGBTQ people are experiencing.The problem with the church's position is that it gives permission to tell other people how they feel. That's not ok.

People have also brought up the example of those like Tom Christofferson who left the church (sort of) and came back (sort of). This ignores the fact that these people lived full lives outside the church and only returned when their sex drives diminished in later years. I'm probably sounding a bit judgy here, but I hate it when men of retirement age berate 20 year-old missionaries for having a sex drive. This seems like a similar situation.

Edit: I am a cisgender heterosexual male who tries to stay out of other people's business. But I also don't like hearing others tell people how they should feel.
The gay Mormon man in a mixed orientation marriage you mention clearly hasn't figured out how Holland really feels about him.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Hagoth
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Hagoth » Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:08 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:30 am
Holland has created chaos in some of our family and social circles. Such divisive rhetoric and language.
I can tell you Mrs. Hagoth was not too thrilled to hear the details of his talk. Also, she thought the Bagley cartoon was both funny and on-target.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Hagoth » Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:15 pm

Alas said this on another thread, but I think it needs to be repeated here:
alas wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:16 am
See, Holland really wants to be a nice guy. We wants to love everyone. But his church says that he isn’t supposed to tolerate gays who want to be gays. Fine to love gays who hate themselves. But it is not OK if they have accepted that they are gay and want to stay that way. So, he has a conflict, because he knows people need to love themselves, but gays are not supposed to love themselves as is, but they are born that way and can’t change. So, he both believes they need to love themselves, and that they should not love themselves until they change, and that they can’t change. So it yells at the teachers at BYU and takes unfair digs at valedictorians. Because he knows he can’t be trusted. Which makes him angry. Because if gays didn’t exist he wouldn’t have this conflict, so it is all their fault for existing and they should stop, so he doesn’t have to lie to himself that he is really the good guy he wants to be, while still hating gays. So, yeah, I feel sorry for his poor worthless behind.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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2bizE
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by 2bizE » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:51 pm

The Mormon Land podcast features a recent episode about this talk by Elder Holland. I found it quite enlightening. The guest on the podcast is a former BYU alumni who is currently in an administration position at a Methodist university. He had many insights I hadn’t thought of and ultimately believed this talk is going to hinder BYU.
Here is a link, but I just use “Podcasts” on my iPhone instead:
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/08 ... dame-more/
~2bizE

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moksha
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by moksha » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:34 pm

The BYU Valedictorian Matt Easton who was besmirched by Elder Holland was on the Mormon Stories podcast. Wish Elder Holland had not thrown fuel on this LDS war against gays fire. Why do the Brethren have to demonize anyone? Why can't they let go of their hatred? What namby-pamby taffy pulling game is Holland playing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfsyFraqZyY
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Red Ryder
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:11 am

2bizE wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:51 pm
The Mormon Land podcast features a recent episode about this talk by Elder Holland. I found it quite enlightening. The guest on the podcast is a former BYU alumni who is currently in an administration position at a Methodist university. He had many insights I hadn’t thought of and ultimately believed this talk is going to hinder BYU.
Here is a link, but I just use “Podcasts” on my iPhone instead:
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/08 ... dame-more/
Thanks for posting this! I just shared it with a few family members that think BYU is gods greatest gift to humanity.

I have to disagree with him here in that in my opinion BYU already is included in the likes of Oral Roberts, Liberty, Bob Jones U!

Mormons like to believe they are the “Notre Dame of the West”. 😂
I think that most Latter-day Saints, most BYU faculty would rather be in the sort of the cohort that includes Notre Dame and Baylor and Georgetown as religious universities, than Oral Roberts University, Liberty, and Bob Jones University. But that’s going to become our natural cohort if these things progress too far. And that’s a problem because they hate Mormons, and they won’t want to associate with us.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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2bizE
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by 2bizE » Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:09 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:11 am
2bizE wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:51 pm
The Mormon Land podcast features a recent episode about this talk by Elder Holland. I found it quite enlightening. The guest on the podcast is a former BYU alumni who is currently in an administration position at a Methodist university. He had many insights I hadn’t thought of and ultimately believed this talk is going to hinder BYU.
Here is a link, but I just use “Podcasts” on my iPhone instead:
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/08 ... dame-more/
Thanks for posting this! I just shared it with a few family members that think BYU is gods greatest gift to humanity.

I have to disagree with him here in that in my opinion BYU already is included in the likes of Oral Roberts, Liberty, Bob Jones U!

Mormons like to believe they are the “Notre Dame of the West”. 😂
I think that most Latter-day Saints, most BYU faculty would rather be in the sort of the cohort that includes Notre Dame and Baylor and Georgetown as religious universities, than Oral Roberts University, Liberty, and Bob Jones University. But that’s going to become our natural cohort if these things progress too far. And that’s a problem because they hate Mormons, and they won’t want to associate with us.
This quote from Michael Austin on the podcast was just pure gold. Can you imagine Nobody wanting to play BYU sports teams so BYU has to result playing Bob Jones University. :lol: :lol:

He also said that at the Methodist University where he works, they have the same belief on same sex marriage as Mormons, but “we don’t police those values onto our students and onto our employees”.
~2bizE

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