Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

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Palerider
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Palerider » Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:17 am

2bizE wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:09 pm


He also said that at the Methodist University where he works, they have the same belief on same sex marriage as Mormons, but “we don’t police those values onto our students and onto our employees”.

Methodist University probably believes in that weird principle...... trying to remember what it's called.....Oh, yeah, that's it..............Free agency.
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"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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nibbler
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by nibbler » Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:01 pm

Liberty could probably hang with BYU in football. It could be the new rivalry, could have a trophy that passes to the winner each year. Liberty might not go for it, but they could cast some tumbaga plates (gold is heavy and expensive) and each year carve the winner on the plate.

Verily, verily, it came to pass that in the 5th year after the reign of chief judge Trump, the Flames dideth defeat the Cougars on the battle pitch. Yea, to the score of 42 to 17.

Bonus, if they write it in Reformed Egyptian that long English sentence would get reduced down to one, two characters max. Plenty of room on just one plate to record dispensation's worth of scores.

Or just meet up each year in the bigot bowl, sponsored by Hobby Lobby.
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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blazerb
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by blazerb » Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:22 am

nibbler wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:01 pm
Liberty could probably hang with BYU in football. It could be the new rivalry, could have a trophy that passes to the winner each year. Liberty might not go for it, but they could cast some tumbaga plates (gold is heavy and expensive) and each year carve the winner on the plate.

Verily, verily, it came to pass that in the 5th year after the reign of chief judge Trump, the Flames dideth defeat the Cougars on the battle pitch. Yea, to the score of 42 to 17.

Bonus, if they write it in Reformed Egyptian that long English sentence would get reduced down to one, two characters max. Plenty of room on just one plate to record dispensation's worth of scores.

Or just meet up each year in the bigot bowl, sponsored by Hobby Lobby.
BYU is going to the Big 12. How obnoxious is Baylor's on-campus atmosphere?

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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by moksha » Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:58 am

blazerb wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:22 am
BYU is going to the Big 12. How obnoxious is Baylor's on-campus atmosphere?
The Big 12 will be inheriting some hateful baggage.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Hagoth
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Hagoth » Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:12 pm

I overheard parts of Zoom sacrament meeting today. People were falling all over themselves praising Holland's talk and marveling at what a great and loving man he is. How dare anyone misunderstand his words as anything but loving and supporting?

p.s. we're living in the last days and everybody is wicked but us. Nameofjesuschristamen.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by jfro18 » Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:52 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:12 pm
I overheard parts of Zoom sacrament meeting today. People were falling all over themselves praising Holland's talk and marveling at what a great and loving man he is. How dare anyone misunderstand his words as anything but loving and supporting?

p.s. we're living in the last days and everybody is wicked but us. Nameofjesuschristamen.
Seems like there was a lot of gushing over Holland's "love" for the LGBT community and a back-and-forth between people praising Nelson for urging vaccines and the love of free agency to not get vaccinated.

All is well.

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moksha
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by moksha » Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:48 pm

I imagine musket sales are booming throughout Utah.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Hagoth
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Hagoth » Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:17 am

A couple of things I wish I could tell Jeffrey Holland:

Did you notice how you told everyone to stop using devisive symbols (rainbow flag? I dunno) but then you immediately followed that up by using the divisive symbol of muskets aimed at enemies who, incidentally, you failed to clearly identify, allowing everyone to choose their enemies with your tacit approval? You repeated the musket analogy several times and then you went out of your way again to reconfirm that shooting people with lead projectiles really is the most correct analogy to use. Do you see the hypocrisy of telling people you don't agree with to be respectable and do what you yourself are not willing to do yourself? Do you see the hypocrisy of weeping about the desire to beat your sword into a plowshare ONLY after your enemies have done it? Or after you have succeeded in removing all of their heads with that sword?

You wept so touchingly about your scar tissue from suffering so much over this topic. Have you forgotten your Wrong Roads talk? Have you considered that God might be putting you guys to the test to see whether you will choose Christlike compassion over policy and dogma? Don't you remember that you told us God will send you down the wrong path so you can use your own faculties and sensitivities, before they scab over and turn to scar tissue, to find the correct path? Worse, did you notice that you talked about following the words of Jesus but you are unable to produce a single instance of Jesus actually saying any of the stuff you're hitching your wagon to, only examples of what the Arm O' Flesh (e.g. His Royal Bigotness Dallin Oaks) has said about it. Do you think you might be able to find some actual words of Jesus in the NT where he talks about, oh I don't know, loving your enemy, treating others as you would have them treat you, forgiving, walking the extra mile..." Can you point to a single reference in the New Testament or any of the restoration scripture that specifically addresses this oh-so-scary topic? Did Jesus tell you this face-to-face? Do you believe he told it to Russell Nelson face-to-face? Can you at the very least provide us with any kind of "thus sayeth the Lord" direct quote before we throw our LGTBQ kids out into the cold or have their suicide letters notarized and placed in the family book of remembrance?

And when are you guys just going to come out and say what you mean instead of just spewing vague dogwistles - and then letting the dogs out? You never once in this talk gave a single concrete statement or example about exactly what action you expect people to take when you tell your fanboys to aim and shoot a musket ball into an "enemy." I've heard a lot of believing members say "he didn't mean what it sounded like he meant." So what DID you mean? To quote John Larsen, "JUST SAY IT!"

ETA - my dad had a word for this kind of behavior. Chickensh!t.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:36 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:17 am

And when are you guys just going to come out and say what you mean instead of just spewing vague dogwistles - and then letting the dogs out? You never once in this talk gave a single concrete statement or example about exactly what action you expect people to take when you tell your fanboys to aim and shoot a musket ball into an "enemy." I've heard a lot of believing members say "he didn't mean what it sounded like he meant." So what DID you mean? To quote John Larsen, "JUST SAY IT!"

ETA - my dad had a word for this kind of behavior. Chickensh!t.
I’ve had to sit through a couple of bad conversations of TBMs defending Holland. At the end I’ve pointed out the 2 great commandments.

Jesus said:
1. Love God
2. Love your neighbor.

He didn’t say to buy, own, collect, stock up on, clean, or aim a musket. In fact he don’t mention muskets at all. So Holland is wrong here.

The real problem is they all think Holland is God and point to the first commandment above.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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moksha
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by moksha » Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:52 am

I was just thinking that the coming school year will be extra hard for LGBTQ students in Utah schools due to this rhetoric flair-up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints vs Gays war.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Hagoth » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:02 am

moksha wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:52 am
I was just thinking that the coming school year will be extra hard for LGBTQ students in Utah schools due to this rhetoric flair-up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints vs Gays war.
John Larsen also mentioned that the teachers at his kids' high school (Brighton) who displayed rainbow colors and LGBTQ safe zone signs in their classrooms were ordered to take them down. I wonder if that was after Holland's speech.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by moksha » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:58 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:02 am
moksha wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:52 am
I was just thinking that the coming school year will be extra hard for LGBTQ students in Utah schools due to this rhetoric flair-up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints vs Gays war.
John Larsen also mentioned that the teachers at his kids' high school (Brighton) who displayed rainbow colors and LGBTQ safe zone signs in their classrooms were ordered to take them down. I wonder if that was after Holland's speech.
The Canyon School District Administrators probably went on high alert to help facilitate the requested musket fire. Rainbow flags are the symbol of the enemy in the Church's war on gays.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:11 pm

What a god-awful talk. I guess I should thank him because it is part of why my wife has now felt like it is the right thing for her to have gone inactive which I NEVER thought would EVER happen. We both have separated ourselves from the church as of 3-4 months ago (although two of our three children still go to BYU). There's really no hope for a sustainable middle way as evidenced by my formerly TBM wife leaving the church and Holland sealed the deal and confirmed her movement away from the church. The church is its own worst enemy.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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Hagoth
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Hagoth » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:27 pm

Whoa, Stealthbishop sighting!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Not Buying It
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:57 am

stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:11 pm
What a god-awful talk. I guess I should thank him because it is part of why my wife has now felt like it is the right thing for her to have gone inactive which I NEVER thought would EVER happen. We both have separated ourselves from the church as of 3-4 months ago (although two of our three children still go to BYU). There's really no hope for a sustainable middle way as evidenced by my formerly TBM wife leaving the church and Holland sealed the deal and confirmed her movement away from the church. The church is its own worst enemy.
Wow Stealth - nice to hear from you. I remember when you first came on board, I remember how hard you tried to make the middle way work. I watched you slowly learn there is no middle way - it isn't part of the Gospel Plan©. The Church doesn't want, need, or care about anybody who isn't ready to bend the knee unquestioningly to all of its ridiculous demands. I am glad your wife has made it to the other side with you.

We've missed your insights and thoughts here, I always appreciated your posts. Please stop by more often if you get a chance!
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by stealthbishop » Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:53 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:57 am
stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:11 pm
What a god-awful talk. I guess I should thank him because it is part of why my wife has now felt like it is the right thing for her to have gone inactive which I NEVER thought would EVER happen. We both have separated ourselves from the church as of 3-4 months ago (although two of our three children still go to BYU). There's really no hope for a sustainable middle way as evidenced by my formerly TBM wife leaving the church and Holland sealed the deal and confirmed her movement away from the church. The church is its own worst enemy.
Wow Stealth - nice to hear from you. I remember when you first came on board, I remember how hard you tried to make the middle way work. I watched you slowly learn there is no middle way - it isn't part of the Gospel Plan©. The Church doesn't want, need, or care about anybody who isn't ready to bend the knee unquestioningly to all of its ridiculous demands. I am glad your wife has made it to the other side with you.

We've missed your insights and thoughts here, I always appreciated your posts. Please stop by more often if you get a chance!
Thanks NBI, I'll defintely try to be around more often.

Yeah, the middle way for me died. Mostly because my wife pulled away from the church and all my children are either mentally out or out. But if my wife was still in, I'd probably be still fighting the good fight perhaps to some degree. For most it is not sustainable because you will get ZERO help from the church leadership especially at the general level. You might get some leadership roulette luck at the local but that can be temporary as we all know with term limits at the local level.

It's great to be back. This place is like home.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Angel » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:02 pm

One of my kids - abused by bishopric member now in jail - has let me know they are trans. I am happy for them, was afraid they would never have their own family because of the abuse, but now they have found a way to escape physical contact that is triggering and also still have a family. There are two other kids abused by the same guy who are not out yet...

I am learning to call my child by a new name. I am learning how to use gender neutral words. It is hard, old habits... we are being brave with people in our family who do not understand - smiling, celebrating holidays, not changing a thing in how we interact as it is still us, we are the same people we have always been.

Thank God they are not at BYU.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hagoth
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Hagoth » Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:30 am

Angel wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:02 pm
One of my kids - abused by bishopric member now in jail - has let me know they are trans. I am happy for them, was afraid they would never have their own family because of the abuse, but now they have found a way to escape physical contact that is triggering and also still have a family. There are two other kids abused by the same guy who are not out yet...

I am learning to call my child by a new name. I am learning how to use gender neutral words. It is hard, old habits... we are being brave with people in our family who do not understand - smiling, celebrating holidays, not changing a thing in how we interact as it is still us, we are the same people we have always been.

Thank God they are not at BYU.
Angel, we also found out a couple of years ago that one of our children is transgender. We are still getting used to calling her by the appropriate pronouns. At least her name is neutral enough that she has not felt the need to change it. She is in a relationship with a really great non-binary kid who uses gender neutral pronouns. We're getting better, but the mind-shift to she and they at the same time has been more difficult than I would have expected and we slip up all the time. Our daughter tells us that she is much happier now. Our biggest concern was would she ever find a loving relationship, especially in Utah, but we are very gratified to see that this is a very loving and devoted relationship.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Angel
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by Angel » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:38 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:30 am
Angel wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:02 pm
One of my kids - abused by bishopric member now in jail - has let me know they are trans. I am happy for them, was afraid they would never have their own family because of the abuse, but now they have found a way to escape physical contact that is triggering and also still have a family. There are two other kids abused by the same guy who are not out yet...

I am learning to call my child by a new name. I am learning how to use gender neutral words. It is hard, old habits... we are being brave with people in our family who do not understand - smiling, celebrating holidays, not changing a thing in how we interact as it is still us, we are the same people we have always been.

Thank God they are not at BYU.
Angel, we also found out a couple of years ago that one of our children is transgender. We are still getting used to calling her by the appropriate pronouns. At least her name is neutral enough that she has not felt the need to change it. She is in a relationship with a really great non-binary kid who uses gender neutral pronouns. We're getting better, but the mind-shift to she and they at the same time has been more difficult than I would have expected and we slip up all the time. Our daughter tells us that she is much happier now. Our biggest concern was would she ever find a loving relationship, especially in Utah, but we are very gratified to see that this is a very loving and devoted relationship.
Thanks for sharing. So much of what is wrong with the world involves sexism. We are all nurturers, we can all be kind and tender-hearted, we can all do the dishes and share in parenting responsibilities, we can all provide, we all protect. Families come in all shapes and sizes - consider Jesus' family, "behold my mother and my brotheren" ← non traditional family, and his ministry did NOT revolve around getting married and having kids. I work with quite a few LGBTQ and they are amazing kind people, some I would label as empaths. It is strange that this is so triggering for so many....
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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moksha
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Re: Jeffrey Holland is a terrible human being so it's fitting he gave this talk at BYU

Post by moksha » Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:21 pm

Angel wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:38 pm
It is strange that this is so triggering for so many....
Better not mention triggering when the Church education system is readying their muskets.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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