NOM

I took part in a fun discussion at church recently. A couple of us were chatting and one guy brought up how ineffective masks are against COVID-19 and how he had read that masks are like using a chain link fence to stop a mosquito (note: please don't respond about how effective masks may or may not be because that isn’t the point of this post). As far as I know, this guy is a TBM.

So the question was posed: President Nelson is a doctor and a pretty well-regarded doctor at that. On top of that he is the prophet. He signed a letter urging everyone to wear masks at church. Do you think he got it wrong?

The answer was very interesting. The salamander letter was brought up to show that Hinckley and some other apostles had been deceived. So this TBM guy said that he believes that President Nelson has been deceived by powerful forces about the efficacy of masks and vaccinations.

Of course, this answer made the next question easy. “So if President Nelson has been deceived about masks, what else has he been deceived about?”

The answer was “I don’t want to go there.”

Glad to see someone thinking and it makes me wonder how many other TBMs have concerns but “they don’t want to go there”.

This is a question that has a lot of answers and none of them are helpful for the church, but getting someone to answer the question is impossible as you noted in your post...

It's akin to asking "What would you need to hear/see to know the church wasn't true?"

It's interesting to reflect on this. You can think about all of the controversial things in church history that has caused people to leave. From Oliver Cowdery's excommunication (Fanny Alger), to the Kirtland bank scandal, to Martin Harris's denial of seeing an angel or plates, to Joseph's polygamy/polyandry, to the Kinderhook plates, to the Doctrine and Covenants, to the succession crisis, to Brigham's blood atonement, polygamy and mountain meadows, to Blacks and the priesthood, to Prop 8, to mall, to the anti-gay policy and its reversal, to the pandemic(masks and vaccines), and to Holland's inflammatory speech etc. etc.

But what's interesting about this is that I'm sure the majority of mainstream medical professionals would agree with Pres. Nelson on masks/vaccines. So this is one good thing (compared to many bad things the church has done) in the opinion of many that might cause some in the church to question and leave.

Sorry Advocate, I kind of did what you told me not to. It is interesting to see what causes some to question. I suppose another cause would be like those who feel that the church has drifted away from its roots like those who belong to different splinter groups.

When I consider the amount of fear among conservatives about being controlled via pandemic mitigation measures, it doesn't surprise me at all. This pits existential fear against existential fear. Fear is powerful. Which fear will win?

It seems that Russell Nelson would say that every modern "prophet" before him was deceived when they used the word "mormon"

I had an temple recommend interview with a member of our ward the other day. When I asked the question "Do you sustain the president of the COJCOLDS as prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on earth who is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?" They paused for a minute, hesitated, and then stumbled out an answer.

Essentially they said they do sustain him but think that God is purposely "trying his people" by telling the prophet to tell us to do something we shouldn't obey, and that is the test. To see if we will do what is right even if we're told to do wrong by the prophet.

I honestly just stared at them for a minute trying to figure out how that fits in at all with everything we've all been taught since we went to nursery...

[*] Follow the prophet
[*] He knows the way
[*] Follow the prophet and even if he is wrong, you'll be blessed
[*] Whether by His voice of the voice of His servants it is the same
[*] The prophet will Never lead us astray. He cannot! He would be removed from his calling if he tried.

This particular person is new in our ward, otherwise I would have passed this interview off to one of my counselors. They are quite literally not mentally fit. As I stared at them trying to figure out how or even if I should respond, they just stared back clutching their "Earth crystal" (more on that if you're interested) and smiling at me as if what they had just said made any sense at all in the world of Mormondom.

I continued on without comment, gave them a recommend and moved on with my day. I don't actually care enough to be the temple gatekeeper I'm supposed to be. Especially not if it means arguing with people who can't logic their way out of a wet cardboard box.

græy wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:57 am

Essentially they said they do sustain him but think that God is purposely "trying his people" by telling the prophet to tell us to do something we shouldn't obey, and that is the test. To see if we will do what is right even if we're told to do wrong by the prophet.

....

I continued on without comment, gave them a recommend and moved on with my day. I don't actually care enough to be the temple gatekeeper I'm supposed to be. Especially not if it means arguing with people who can't logic their way out of a wet cardboard box.

you just opened the floodgates by giving her a TR you validated their "trying his people" theories, and she will now feel at liberty to tell everyone in the ward that you agree with her, as shown by giving her a TR smile smile wink wink -

Don't follow Jonah, Don't follow Jonah, Don't follow Jonah, He went astray.....
Don't follow Jonah, Don't follow Jonah, Don't follow Jonah, He ran away!

I had a past member come to the door recently.... after dark, in a rainstorm.... they were barefoot, and riding a bike and had heard that "I was on a different journey"... they proceeded to tell me about the energy work they are doing, about how they are drawn to random people (a bum on the beach was mentioned they camped with... but then the energy dissipated) I could not quite follow everything they were saying and really hope I never sounded like that...

highly entertaining, you cannot make this stuff up.

I happen to have a large rock collection - no "Earth crystals"? I just have miners in my family, grew up in a mining town. If someone gets their own seer stones - haha - that is when the new prophetess will be taking her reigns.

My favorite prophet was deceived story was in Feb. 1834 when Joseph Smith called the 12 apostles. He also told them "56 years should wrap up the scene" and the context obviously shows he means the return of Jesus Christ. A record kept of the ordination and blessing of several of the apostles shows several of them were promised that they would tarry until the Second Coming, which Joseph had just previously said was to be in "about 56 years should wrap up the scene."

Hollow Earth? Space tribes? Dinosaurs?

As a TBM, I felt that the prophet had been deceived about evolution, various statements around LGBT+ issues, the nature of language in the KJV Bible, and many other things. I carefully avoided dealing with logical consequences of the prophet being wrong. The 14 fundamentals of following the prophet can only make sense if a prophet is infallible. Fallibility causes the whole church structure to collapse.

græy wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:57 am

This particular person is new in our ward, otherwise I would have passed this interview off to one of my counselors. They are quite literally not mentally fit. As I stared at them trying to figure out how or even if I should respond, they just stared back clutching their "Earth crystal" (more on that if you're interested) and smiling at me as if what they had just said made any sense at all in the world of Mormondom.

I continued on without comment, gave them a recommend and moved on with my day. I don't actually care enough to be the temple gatekeeper I'm supposed to be. Especially not if it means arguing with people who can't logic their way out of a wet cardboard box.

I'd like to hear about the "Earth Crystal."

I wonder how the second interview went? Do they still require an interview from the Stake Presidency to get the recommend?

Definitely deceived by racism which led to blacks not receiving priesthood and temple blessings

hmb wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:30 am

I'd like to hear about the "Earth Crystal."

I wonder how the second interview went? Do they still require an interview from the Stake Presidency to get the recommend?

This person spends all of church (and likely the rest of their 24/7 life) firmly holding this white crystal, which is the size of a large cucumber, closer to their chest. It is awkward watching them interact with their children because they have to do everything one-handed for fear of losing the "grounding" that the crystal provides.

During the interview I asked if they felt the crystal had any healing properties and they told me it was all about "grounding" and feeling connected to the Earth. I'm an electrical engineer and well aware of the benefits of having equipment or buildings well grounded, but this just made me chuckle.

I asked the member if they'd heard about the recent handbook updates regarding energy healing. Their response, fittingly, was that they don't care what the handbook says, they know it helps them... but they "still sustain the prophet."

græy wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:57 am

Essentially they said they do sustain him but think that God is purposely "trying his people" by telling the prophet to tell us to do something we shouldn't obey, and that is the test.

I can't stop thinking about this. It's something we are hearing more and more lately, especially with alt-righters who bristle at the idea of a prophet/doctor going to the dark side and recommending masks and vaccinations. It's the Holland Wrong Roads talk.

Their only answer is that the prophet is only wrong about some things, but otherwise he's the mouthpiece of God. How many will eventually be able to make the logical step to realizing that if you can't trust the prophet about some very important life-or-death matters how can you ever trust him about anything he says? And how can you know the difference? When will they notice that what they see as his errors only apply to certain beliefs and preferences that the already align with, but not to the beliefs and preferences of others who believe differently?

blazerb wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:54 pm

Fallibility causes the whole church structure to collapse.

The pope claims to be infallible, but no Catholic believes it.
The LDS prophet does not claim to be infallible, but no Mormon believes it.

The best thing about biblical Christianity is repentance/atonement the example of the apostles totally messing up and then apologizing. If there is ever a church leader who is humble enough to admit being wrong and apologize (as the original apostles did over and over again - could not walk on water, asked Jesus why they were unable to heal, cried bitterly after denying Christ etc.) .... repentance, metanoia, and those who actually show by example what that is - that is the most beautiful thing about Christianity.

High and mighty leaders who pretend to be perfect when they are not = hypocritical Pharisees = the exact opposite what Jesus and the atonement was all about.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:55 am

græy wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:57 am

Essentially they said they do sustain him but think that God is purposely "trying his people" by telling the prophet to tell us to do something we shouldn't obey, and that is the test.

I can't stop thinking about this. It's something we are hearing more and more lately, especially with alt-righters who bristle at the idea of a prophet/doctor going to the dark side and recommending masks and vaccinations. It's the Holland Wrong Roads talk.

Their only answer is that the prophet is only wrong about some things, but otherwise he's the mouthpiece of God. How many will eventually be able to make the logical step to realizing that if you can't trust the prophet about some very important life-or-death matters how can you ever trust him about anything he says? And how can you know the difference? When will they notice that what they see as his errors only apply to certain beliefs and preferences that the already align with, but not to the beliefs and preferences of others who believe differently?

I do appreciate the Perry stages, though many see moving away from other authority figures and becoming your own authority figure as being very prideful (even though in questioning other authority figures you learn to become humble and willing to change your own viewpoints given more information, and all authority figures would be "prideful" in that sort of a thing).

Lean not unto your own understanding... instead lean on that other guy's understanding who is also leaning unto their own understanding? and lean unto thine own understanding to decide whose view to lean on?

Maybe this is one time they should trust in this particular arm of flesh:

Either Joseph Smith and all of the prophets (and the Nephite "authors" of the BoM) before DNA sequencing were deceived about who the Lamanites are, or the post-DNA prophets are deceived about who the Lamanites are.

græy wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:52 am

hmb wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:30 am

I'd like to hear about the "Earth Crystal."

I wonder how the second interview went? Do they still require an interview from the Stake Presidency to get the recommend?

This person spends all of church (and likely the rest of their 24/7 life) firmly holding this white crystal, which is the size of a large cucumber,

It's so difficult to not make some naughty comment. I'll behave. I will. I even changed my wording from "hard" to "difficult" (because I'm being good).