The Progressive Mormon Debate

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Mormorrisey
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The Progressive Mormon Debate

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:58 am

So I haven't been on NOM for a while. The reasons are kind of complicated, but a lot of it boils down to having a fairly recent new boss, one of my guys retiring and me having to subsequently cover all those extra shifts for several months now. It looks like that's coming to an end, so I hopefully will have some more time to contribute to the best ward on the internet. In the meantime, life is generally great, I'll post about that at some point, it's just pretty emotional how Sis M and I are getting along these days.

But a recent debate about progressive mormons from the post-mormon community has caught my eye, and has made me ponder upon why I'm generally running away from ALL things mormon-related. Lindsay Hansen Park, as she often does, gets into the heart of things in a recent Facebook post (I'd link it, but I still don't know the rules for doing so.) Its a wonderful post, that illustrates a lot of empathy both from the frustration of ex-mormons who think all progressive mormons should leave the church, and the frustrations of those who stay. If I could, I'll just quote from one woman that I thought summarized how I feel about things:

"Being in the middle is kind of hard because you take shit from both sides and don’t quite fit in with either. We all need to all honor each others choices and journeys."

Bingo, anonymous internet woman.

I'm kind of tired of it all now. Tired of not fitting in with other people's expectations of what a mormon should be and act, AND what a non-believing mormon should be and act. Tired of people who don't share my last name telling me how to live my life, that they know better that I do what I should be accomplishing, who I should be REALLY helping, and all of the people with their own baggage trying to add to my own.

Pretty much done with all of that. I'm not listening anymore to any of these voices. I'm simply not going to listen to regular mormons, ex-mormons, progressive mormons, Trumper mormons or jack mormons. For that matter, I'm not going to jump to attention when political leaders, academics, other spiritual or religious leaders, my local Jaycees or my neighbourhood postal carrier try to tell me how to live my life.

I won't be mean, I'll listen carefully, evaluate what they have to say, and if it helps my life, I might actually follow their advice. If it doesn't, I'll just smile politely and tell them I'll take it under advisement. But I'm largely done with people trying to micromanage my life.

Which is why I will always crawl back here for safety. I have yet to have someone on this board tell me how to NOM, that they need 10% of my income to function as a discussion board, that I absolutely need to "minister" to other NOMmies, or that I have to get new recruits to join. Thank you for being the one place of sanity from all of that.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Linked
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Re: The Progressive Mormon Debate

Post by Linked » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:50 am

Good to hear from you Mormorrisey! Sorry work has been so busy but it's good to hear life is going well for you!
I won't be mean, I'll listen carefully, evaluate what they have to say, and if it helps my life, I might actually follow their advice. If it doesn't, I'll just smile politely and tell them I'll take it under advisement. But I'm largely done with people trying to micromanage my life.
I really like this plan for when people give advice. It belies a deep understanding and comfort with yourself to be able to hear other's perspectives and pick and choose what fits you and what doesn't. And a kindness and patience to listen even when you may disagree.

After a year and a half of COVID and being told I have to respect people's decisions about vaccines and masks I struggle with the line "We all need to all honor each others choices and journeys". I would change it to "We should all be more understanding and thoughtful of the humanity in each other's choices and journeys".

I think that is a key part of NOM, we assume good intent and try to be understanding of each other's views. So we can believers and non-believers, liberals and moderates and conservatives, with relatively little harsh judgement. We often may disagree, but we typically try to see and understand the person behind the opinion.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Red Ryder
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Re: The Progressive Mormon Debate

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:39 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:58 am

I'm kind of tired of it all now. Tired of not fitting in with other people's expectations of what a mormon should be and act, AND what a non-believing mormon should be and act. Tired of people who don't share my last name telling me how to live my life, that they know better that I do what I should be accomplishing, who I should be REALLY helping, and all of the people with their own baggage trying to add to my own.

Pretty much done with all of that. I'm not listening anymore to any of these voices. I'm simply not going to listen to regular mormons, ex-mormons, progressive mormons, Trumper mormons or jack mormons. For that matter, I'm not going to jump to attention when political leaders, academics, other spiritual or religious leaders, my local Jaycees or my neighbourhood postal carrier try to tell me how to live my life.
Post a link for us non Face booker’s!

I like this quoted part the best. It’s become my antidote for progression away from Mormonism. I have a hard time not caring for what others think. It’s finally settling in that I need to stop caring.

I used to attend for the wife and held a calling. Got rid of that and attend infrequently now. I used to worry family could tell I wasn’t wearing the G’s. So I’d wear a white t-shirt under any shirt. Stopped dining that too. They already know I don’t wear the authorized pattern so why pretend I do?

Mormorrissey, your wisdom here at NOM over the years has been amazing. I’ve modeled a lot of my mixed faith marriage Mormon toleration behaviors after your shared experiences.
Thanks for your contributions.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Palerider
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Re: The Progressive Mormon Debate

Post by Palerider » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:04 pm

This sort of reminds me of how young high schoolers go through life.

They have issues that they don't know how to deal with and they don't think adults will understand so they end up asking their peers for advice.....who are just as inexperienced and naive as they are. They are the last people they should be getting advice from.

But for some reason when we're all adults, many seem to think their life experience now gives them the right to tell everyone else how their lives ought to be conducted.

They should know better.

People grow and develop psychologically/spiritually at different rates. Some are able to accomplish an honest introspective self-critique sooner than others. It's not a one size fits all situation. Outer truth is not easily found. Inner honesty is not easily lived. These things take time.

But paying 10% to the Corp helps right?

Sorry, that was a cheap shot. 😔

I've seen people who stop growing. Some think they have all the answers. Others just don't care anymore. Both are sad cases. Both can create difficulty for those around them that are still trying to grow. Having all the answers tends to make one authoritative and lacking in humility (Even when they claim they have loads of it.) I call it arrogance without malice.

Not caring anymore tends to make people exploitative of others and of resources. Just get whatever you can before the clock runs out. They give being human a bad name.

I like that I can grow at my own pace without pressure from outside, non-divine sources. I beat myself up just fine, thank you. No more people with a timber sticking out of their eye, telling me about the "mote" in mine.

From either the left or the right. 😉
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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stealthbishop
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Re: The Progressive Mormon Debate

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:00 pm

I saw LHP's post on FB too. I didn't know there was a debate recently because I don't really run in ExMo circles. It definitely resonated with me in a similar way to the OP and LHP.

Even though we have stepped back from the church, I still don't see myself as an ExMo (or even PostMo) and my wife doesn't see herself that way either. It just doesn't fit for me. Not sure what I am. NOM has probably been the best descriptor for me.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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jfro18
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Re: The Progressive Mormon Debate

Post by jfro18 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:06 pm

For those who are interested, her post can be found @ https://www.facebook.com/lindsay.park.7 ... 3147318654

I don't follow the back and forth a ton, but I know there's always a backlash to the 'progressive' Mormons because they fight to defend the church's foundation while constantly admitting that there are serious problems that need to be fixed. You see it on Facebook posts from time to time and I think Lindsey gets hit from both sides since she tries to take a more centrist approach to many of the church's issues.

It's definitely an interesting debate... I don't understand progressive Mormons who stay in knowing that it's not what they were told the church was, but I have also learned everyone stays for their own reasons (which vary greatly among people) and that it's not my place or desire to care or argue with them about it. :)

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Mormorrisey
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Re: The Progressive Mormon Debate

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:11 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:39 pm

Mormorrissey, your wisdom here at NOM over the years has been amazing. I’ve modeled a lot of my mixed faith marriage Mormon toleration behaviors after your shared experiences.
Thanks for your contributions.
Those are very kind words, RR. But I think we both know that so many others who had to deal with these issues long before either of us came to NOM, yea, even those who created the first NOM board, to all you glorious people on NOM 2.0, have given so much good advice over the years that I think I have simply internalized it, as you and so many others have done. (Insert circle of life meme here.)

That's why I love this place, for the aptly named support section. It truly has been a wonderful support to me, and in turn, has benefitted my family, for which I will always be grateful.

It was Canadian Thanksgiving yesterday, and you can bet that my thoughts about gratitude started out focused on my immediate family, and then turned towards my still largely anonymous internet family here. Thanks to you all.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Mormorrisey
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Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:54 pm

Re: The Progressive Mormon Debate

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:19 pm

Linked wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:50 am
Good to hear from you Mormorrisey! Sorry work has been so busy but it's good to hear life is going well for you!

I think that is a key part of NOM, we assume good intent and try to be understanding of each other's views. So we can believers and non-believers, liberals and moderates and conservatives, with relatively little harsh judgement. We often may disagree, but we typically try to see and understand the person behind the opinion.
Good to see you still truckin' too, Linked.

I think your last statement about trying to understand other points of view is why reading things by Lindsay is usually the highlight of my day. She has definite points of view herself, often has to apologize for things she's said in haste, but generally really tries to have empathy and understanding ESPECIALLY for those who don't agree with her. It's pretty difficult in this polarizing age, but Lindsay largely succeeds in finding that soft spot of empathy. And of course, she's a great historian, which I appreciate!

And you're also right about NOM. And that's why I keep coming back to our kick-ass doubters' club. Wallowing in the mire, as it were, according to the Mormon powers that be. But the mud is fine.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Mormorrisey
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Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:54 pm

Re: The Progressive Mormon Debate

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:32 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:06 pm
For those who are interested, her post can be found @ https://www.facebook.com/lindsay.park.7 ... 3147318654

I don't follow the back and forth a ton, but I know there's always a backlash to the 'progressive' Mormons because they fight to defend the church's foundation while constantly admitting that there are serious problems that need to be fixed. You see it on Facebook posts from time to time and I think Lindsey gets hit from both sides since she tries to take a more centrist approach to many of the church's issues.

It's definitely an interesting debate... I don't understand progressive Mormons who stay in knowing that it's not what they were told the church was, but I have also learned everyone stays for their own reasons (which vary greatly among people) and that it's not my place or desire to care or argue with them about it. :)
Thanks for posting this, jfro. I'll try to remember that we can post Facebook links here - I get mixed up with the other doxxing rules on other sites.

And you're right that Lindsay tends to get backlash from both sides a lot. And you yourself, while you may not "understand" why progressive Mormons stay, it's clear that you have no argument with them either, which I would argue, shows some empathy too.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Hagoth
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Re: The Progressive Mormon Debate

Post by Hagoth » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:13 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:58 am
I'm not listening anymore to any of these voices. I'm simply not going to listen to regular mormons, ex-mormons, progressive mormons, Trumper mormons or jack mormons. For that matter, I'm not going to jump to attention when political leaders, academics, other spiritual or religious leaders, my local Jaycees or my neighbourhood postal carrier try to tell me how to live my life.
Congratulations on your graduation!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

lostinmiddlemormonism
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Re: The Progressive Mormon Debate

Post by lostinmiddlemormonism » Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:44 pm

It took me 40 years or so to be comfortable in my own skin. Not that I won’t listen to others, or consider what they have to say, but that I am now comfortable making me own decisions and living with the consequences(good or bad) of those decisions.

Now I need to work on being ok with letting others be themselves and not who I want them to be. This is a bigger challenge for me, but I believe it is the moral and ethical thing to do.

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