NOM

The more I think about it the concept of "doubt your doubts" the more I realize how nonsensical it is.

Maybe someone can help me with understanding what the appropriate TBM take on this is be and how you can know exactly what lines you shouldn't color outside of.

My immediate response is to ask, "why should you doubt everything about Islam, or Scientology but nothing about Latter-Day Saintism?

When Mr. Uchtdorf says doubt your doubts he does not give us an approved check list. You can't use the "words of a prophet" defense, because the church really needs you to doubt your doubts about Brigham Young saying that apostates should be beheaded on the alter of the temple, or that mixed-race children should be killed on sight, or that you should put a javelin through the heart of an unfaithful spouse, or that Adam is God.

I take it to mean that you should doubt anything that creates emotional friction when it rubs up against correlated faith-promoting happy thoughts about the church and its authority structure. But how much room do you have to set those boundaries for yourself?

This shares some of the same dangers as the Wrong Roads approach to epistemology, and can be directly linked to it. If the prophet tells me that I should get vaccinated, but the Holy Ghost tells me that I should not, which voice should I doubt? What if I choose one and it aligns with an ideology that is not in also entirely in line with the church? That gives me another crossroads where I need to identify which doubts to doubt. See, it gets really messy.

My solution: the church could require you to wear a pair of glasses with a built-in camera and microphone at all times so your assigned keeper in the COB can monitor everything you read, hear or see, and they can flash a DOUBT IT sign in front of your eyes and blare a siren in your ears (oh yeah, it requires earbuds too) whenever you encounter a problematic piece of information. Bonus: it will quickly cure your porn addiction too.

We should doubt the thoughts that interfere with following the true order of priesthood authority and doctrines of the church.

1: The current living prophet

2. The first presidency

3. The quorum of the twelve apostles

4. Correlated doctrine

5. Any policy or practice determined to be relevant by the leadership listed above.

6. Any narrative that supports the assumption that the church is true and that the leaders listed above are true representatives of a Jesus Christ.

7. Any narrative that builds faith in Jesus Christ and supports the assumption that the church is true and that the leaders listed above are true witnesses of Jesus Christ.

8. Any story, whether factual or not that supports the assumption that the leaders listed above are called by God and the church is true.

9. Anything that the leaders mentioned above decide is important to your eternal salvation that makes them feel supported as true and loving authorities in the earth today.

10. Common sense doubts that reflect the slightest Idea that Joseph Smith made it up and that the leaders mentioned above are full of crap.

That will do.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:51 pm

We should doubt the thoughts that interfere with following the true order of priesthood authority and doctrines of the church.

1: The current living prophet

2. The first presidency

3. The quorum of the twelve apostles

4. Correlated doctrine

5. Any policy or practice determined to be relevant by the leadership listed above.

6. Any narrative that supports the assumption that the church is true and that the leaders listed above are true representatives of a Jesus Christ.

7. Any narrative that builds faith in Jesus Christ and supports the assumption that the church is true and that the leaders listed above are true witnesses of Jesus Christ.

8. Any story, whether factual or not that supports the assumption that the leaders listed above are called by God and the church is true.

9. Anything that the leaders mentioned above decide is important to your eternal salvation that makes them feel supported as true and loving authorities in the earth today.

10. Common sense doubts that reflect the slightest Idea that Joseph Smith made it up and that the leaders mentioned above are full of crap.

That will do.

With just a few minor changes this would make a fantastic conference talk, RR. Maybe you could work in some covenant paths, tender mercies, bindings, and on both sides of the veils.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:51 pm

We should doubt the thoughts that interfere with following the true order of priesthood authority and doctrines of the church.

This is a great list and is sadly all too true.

The "doubt your doubts" talk always bothered me because as a convert I was literally told to doubt what I was raised to believe in order to convert to the church. Then as a member I was told that I should not use that same process to evaluate their claims. It's a problem the moment you think about how missionaries are literally spending two years of their lives trying to get people to doubt their current way of life for the church's.

jfro18 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:08 pm

The "doubt your doubts" talk always bothered me because as a convert I was literally told to doubt what I was raised to believe in order to convert to the church. Then as a member I was told that I should not use that same process to evaluate their claims. It's a problem the moment you think about how missionaries are literally spending two years of their lives trying to get people to doubt their current way of life for the church's.

I had that epiphany about a year into my mission.

We had mostly taught 9 year old unbaptized kids and people who had jumped from religion to religion with no care of what their family thought. Like trying on the latest fashion trend of sorts, but religion. Then we met a husband and wife who had gone through some trauma around losing a child at birth. They loved the idea of an eternal family and wanted to get baptized. The husband had no extended family issues. They didn’t care if he became Mormon. However, the wife’s extended family were hell bent on her getting baptized and actively discouraged even to the point of feeding her all the standard issue anti Mormon materials. We watched the Godmaker’s with her to play defense.

I recall thinking the same thoughts as your comments. It was ironic that we were asking her to give up her faith and family support in order to get baptized. She never did because her family was so against it and her husband realized family was too important to go against their wishes.

I wish I could find out whatever happened to them. Bill and Molly, if you’re out there reading this... I hope your lives turned out OK.

Hiding In Plain Sight (remember him?) used to talk about two Jehovah's Witness families he taught on his mission (forgive me if I'm mascaraing this story HiPS). One family converted to Mormonism and the other didn't. At the LDS church on Sunday the family that converted were constantly held up as righteous, open-minded people who felt the spirit and chose to follow God rather than Satan. In the Kingdom Hall they were saying the same thing, but about the other family.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:11 pm

jfro18 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:08 pm

The "doubt your doubts" talk always bothered me because as a convert I was literally told to doubt what I was raised to believe in order to convert to the church. Then as a member I was told that I should not use that same process to evaluate their claims. It's a problem the moment you think about how missionaries are literally spending two years of their lives trying to get people to doubt their current way of life for the church's.

I had that epiphany about a year into my mission.

We had mostly taught 9 year old unbaptized kids and people who had jumped from religion to religion with no care of what their family thought. Like trying on the latest fashion trend of sorts, but religion. Then we met a husband and wife who had gone through some trauma around losing a child at birth. They loved the idea of an eternal family and wanted to get baptized. The husband had no extended family issues. They didn’t care if he became Mormon. However, the wife’s extended family were hell bent on her getting baptized and actively discouraged even to the point of feeding her all the standard issue anti Mormon materials. We watched the Godmaker’s with her to play defense.

I recall thinking the same thoughts as your comments. It was ironic that we were asking her to give up her faith and family support in order to get baptized. She never did because her family was so against it and her husband realized family was too important to go against their wishes.

I wish I could find out whatever happened to them. Bill and Molly, if you’re out there reading this... I hope your lives turned out OK.

I had a similar experience near the end of my mission. An older lady named Rose was a "seeker." She loved the stuff we told her, she came to church and actually loved it (which was a first for an investigator, it was a very strange ward in a downtown area). Just before I finished my mission, she asked to meet us in her home, and for the first time her husband was not there. A nice old guy, but I thought just uninterested. She broke down crying that her husband was not wanting her to join the church. He was Catholic, and wanted her to remain Catholic.

Even though I was a 22 year old kid, I recognized instantly I was not going to be the one to wreck her nearly 50 year old marriage. And I told her in no uncertain terms that God loved her regardless of her religious affiliation, and her life with her husband was more important. My comp was a little shaken by this declaration, but afterwards told me that that's how he felt too. So I suggested we omit this experience in our weekly president letter, and he would move on with his mission and I would go home.

And Rose and I even kept in touch a little bit when I came home. By an interesting turn of events, Rose and her husband actually came to my wedding reception which was held not far from their location. So I think I've been a doubter even at that early age.

Only with the benefit of more NOMish hindsight did I find it odd that I ONLY doubted my doubts over church things, and nothing else. And then as a missionary and even bishop, I would ask people to doubt their own faith and beliefs. It's truly bizarre, and only when I finally doubted my doubts over church things, the dam broke and my eyes opened.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:42 am

I take it to mean that you should doubt anything that creates emotional friction when it rubs up against correlated faith-promoting happy thoughts about the church and its authority structure. But how much room do you have to set those boundaries for yourself?

This is what it’s about for me now. I gave myself permission to accept logic. I doubt that God needed Joseph Smith to “marry” his sixteen year-old maid. Oh, but what if God did?, they say. And I say, you do you. But asking me to pray about that is like asking me to pray about the Easter bunny. Logic forbids it.

I struggled with a similar question as a believer, "Which thoughts and feelings to believe are from the Holy Ghost?"

It's so ambiguous it gave me loads of anxiety. One night I felt like I needed to drive into the mountains randomly, but I was in the middle of playing basketball. I walked outside and looked at the stars, felt really conflicted, then went back in and played more basketball. I quit a good job after 3 days. I broke up with a girlfriend; then when we got back together I felt like I was denying the Holy Ghost and felt like I was a terrible sinner.

It's been much better just dropping all the wondering.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:42 am

My solution: the church could require you to wear a pair of glasses with a built-in camera and microphone at all times so your assigned keeper in the COB can monitor everything you read, hear or see, and they can flash a DOUBT IT sign in front of your eyes and blare a siren in your ears (oh yeah, it requires earbuds too) whenever you encounter a problematic piece of information. Bonus: it will quickly cure your porn addiction too.

We would see and hear too many DOUBT IT messages to continue with NOM, but I think the young RM keepers at HQ would be easily seduced by our porn watching. They might even come to believe that an angel with a drawn sword is encouraging their porn monitoring.