Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
User avatar
A New Name
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:36 pm

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by A New Name » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:04 pm

Nobody answered Red Ryders question. What are Midnight Mormons? Are they TBM? DezNat? Poly? Why do we care?

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 3183
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by wtfluff » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:19 pm

A New Name wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:04 pm
Nobody answered Red Ryders question. What are Midnight Mormons? Are they TBM? DezNat? Poly? Why do we care?
I believe these Midnight MORmONs are the evolution of Kwaku El and his buddies YouTube exploits. Kwaku started at "3 MORmONs" which was sponsored by BYU? Then Kwaku moved on to This Is The Show (TITS) which was sponsored by FairMORmON? (I don't know what those Fair MORmONs call themselves any more.) Now Kwaku has moved on to Midnight MORmONs. I sure hope they don't actually stay out past midnight. with Holy the Spook running away and hiding at the stroke of 00:00:00.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 4073
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by moksha » Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:39 pm

A New Name wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:04 pm
Nobody answered Red Ryder's question. What are Midnight Mormons? Are they TBM? DezNat? Poly? Why do we care?
Midnight Mormons are an attack group funded by covert Church sources. Its purpose is to attack Church critics with ad hominem accusations. Midnight Mormons are the result of draining religion and restraint out of regular apologetics.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

hmb
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:43 am

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by hmb » Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:21 am

moksha wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:39 pm
A New Name wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:04 pm
Nobody answered Red Ryder's question. What are Midnight Mormons? Are they TBM? DezNat? Poly? Why do we care?
Midnight Mormons are an attack group funded by covert Church sources. Its purpose is to attack Church critics with ad hominem accusations. Midnight Mormons are the result of draining religion and restraint out of regular apologetics.
Are they friends of the general church? Are they temple worthy? Would Midnight Mormons be an answer to the question, "Who's on the Lord's Side Who?"

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 5712
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by Hagoth » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:25 am

hmb wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:21 am
Would Midnight Mormons be an answer to the question, "Who's on the Lord's Side Who?"
From what I have seen. their answer to anyone not wearing their garments on the outside would always be, "well not you, that's for sure!" Followed by the roasting of red herrings over a burning strawman in the form of an ad-hominem effigy.

I think what is most painful about listening to these guys is that they seem to think that if you say something in a tone of voice that sounds like you think you're saying something clever and funny, that actually makes it clever and funny. Nope. It usually just comes across as snarky and juvenile.

When I talked to a couple of the FAIR guys about the TITS videos they were gushing about how amazing they were and how they were going to bring young people streaming back into the church. But didn't they stop funding them?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
MoPag
Posts: 3008
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:05 pm

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by MoPag » Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:32 am

Does Rusty know they are calling themselves the Midnight Mormons? Shouldn't they be called Midnight Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

I dunno. I've only heard clips of them and they seem very problematic. They are, at their core, very insecure. They will do/say anything to prop up the system that makes them feel special and better than everyone else.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

User avatar
2bizE
Posts: 2183
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by 2bizE » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:03 pm

Where can we purchase tickets? Or will it be like GC where you have to get tickets through your bishop or SP? :lol:
~2bizE

Reuben
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by Reuben » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:51 pm

MoPag wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:32 am
I dunno. I've only heard clips of them and they seem very problematic. They are, at their core, very insecure. They will do/say anything to prop up the system that makes them feel special and better than everyone else.
This strikes me as kinda what the church makes everyone into. But maybe the big difference for the rank and file is that the "special" and "better" adjectives apply to the organization instead of the individual, and they get to bask in its reflected glory.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

User avatar
2bizE
Posts: 2183
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by 2bizE » Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:07 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:27 pm
Potential Debate Question:

If a train is traveling at 90 mph from Nauvoo, and another train is traveling at 30 mph from Kirtland, how long will it take for Joseph Smith to marry another man’s wife that was just sent on an overseas mission?
I believe the correct answer is Cincinnati.
~2bizE

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2043
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by Palerider » Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:59 pm

These guys sound like self-appointed, modern day versions of the Danites. They just don't have contact with upper echelons of the church or the guts to actually kill the opposition. The best these weenies can do is try to make fun of you. Their parents should be proud. :oops:
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
jfro18
Posts: 1869
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by jfro18 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:10 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:59 pm
These guys sound like self-appointed, modern day versions of the Danites. They just don't have contact with upper echelons of the church or the guts to actually kill the opposition. The best these weenies can do is try to make fun of you. Their parents should be proud. :oops:
That sums it up pretty well. I haven't listened to much of them, but I did listen to an hour of an interview they did with Jonathan Streeter which was actually a worthwhile listen because it forced them to address some of the issues they usually mock... but usually they just attack the people saying it and work with a lot of strawman arguments.

The TITS videos really are how they function in their other videos as well.

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 5712
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by Hagoth » Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:15 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:10 pm
...I did listen to an hour of an interview they did with Jonathan Streeter...
Got a link to that?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
jfro18
Posts: 1869
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by jfro18 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:33 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:15 pm
Got a link to that?
I haven't listened to part two, but here is part one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRah0g2UD7w

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2043
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by Palerider » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:06 am

In some related research I happened upon a blog that is founded by an organization called, of all things, The Midnight Freemasons.

Is this just a coincidence?

I know some LDS guys are Masons but don't have time to research whether any of RFM's opponents are of that order.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
blazerb
Posts: 1183
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:35 pm

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by blazerb » Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:42 pm

Why are Kwaku and friends even contemplating this? They must know that RFM knows more than they do. He knows how to present information better than they do. He knows how to point out logical errors better than they do. They have no hope.

Besides that, where are the prophets and apostles leaving these kids (I know they're adults, but they are very young for their age.) to do the job that they should be taking on? I guess if Kwaku confounds RFM, I'll have to haul my butt back to church. God will have given his sign. Somehow, I'm not worried about that possibility. However, God calls his servants to destroy their craft, as the BoM puts it. But you won't see an apostle anywhere near RFM to try to stop him. The church members should realize that the existence of Midnight Mormons, FAIR, the Interpreter Foundation, etc. is strong evidence that there is no power in the Q15. They know that God won't give them the answers in the very moment. They can only function in scripted events with friendly crowds. They have to leave the confrontation to unofficial groups that can be disavowed.

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 5712
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by Hagoth » Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:04 am

blazerb wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:42 pm
Why are Kwaku and friends even contemplating this? They must know that RFM knows more than they do. He knows how to present information better than they do. He knows how to point out logical errors better than they do. They have no hope.
I imagine it's because they are planning on a circus, not a debate.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
nibbler
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:12 pm

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by nibbler » Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:40 am

Being completely unfamiliar with Midnight Mormons I watched most of the video linked on this page. That one guy kept going back to "wokeism" and he kept using the term as a pejorative. No real specifics, just woke, as if that alone was enough to communicate a point and win an argument. I see that sort of thing coming from ultra right-wing politicos all the time. It makes me wonder if the guy can separate ultra right-wing conservatism in the USA from Jesus' teachings.

I'd rather he get into specifics because 99% of the time I didn't even know what he meant by "wokeism," I just knew that he had a very low opinion of it.

He also employs a tactic used in Alma v. Korihor, where Alma projects a motivation onto Korihor and wins the debate by attacking the strawman motivation. As if Alma knows Korihor's motivations better than Korihor himself knows his own motivations. This is nothing new in apologetics. Apologists often dodge questions by attacking a projected motivation behind the question.

"You're not asking that question because you honestly have that question, you're only asking it as a veiled attack on the church."
"You don't really care about LGBT+ people, you're just feigning concern so you can use them as an angle of attack on the church."

Yes, that's true with some people but:
  1. So what, answer the question.
  2. So what, quit defending policies that harm LGBT+.
  3. I'd say the overwhelming majority of the time the questions are very genuine. People start their faith crisis in desperation mode, trying to latch onto anything that could be a hint of a whiff of an answer. The questions are a cry for help. Imagine the reaction of a person that's desperate for answers when their questions are met with accusations.
  4. Believe it or not, people really do care about the LGBT+ community and have deep empathy for them.
  5. You're not accurately describing people's motivations, you're projecting your own motivations onto them. In essence, you're saying: "If I were to ask that question, this is the reason why I'd ask it." or "I'd use the LGBT+ community as leverage." It's projection.
In the thread someone asked why Midnight Mormons would debate RFM but I'm left wondering why RFM would debate Midnight Mormons. I don't think anything would come out of it other than more angry accusations.
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

User avatar
slavereeno
Posts: 1245
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:30 am
Location: QC, AZ

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by slavereeno » Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:50 am

A New Name wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:04 pm
Nobody answered Red Ryders question. What are Midnight Mormons? Are they TBM? DezNat? Poly? Why do we care?
Midnight Mormons is an ongoing experiment that is attempting to see how long a human being can live with their head submerged in their own rectal cavity.

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 4073
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by moksha » Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:21 pm

I hope some NOM participants can be on hand as boosters for RFM in this debate. It should be intellectually stimulating and Kwaku might even bring some dance music for later and I'm guessing that Hagoth has some moves. Shawn McRaney said they are providing refreshments.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 5712
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Debate night: RFM vs Midnight Mormoms

Post by Hagoth » Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:21 am

moksha wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:21 pm
...and Kwaku might even bring some dance music...
And maybe some COVID!
I don't know if I can make it, but do you have any details about tickets or entrance rituals, Moksha? I don't know much about McCraney and his church, but I looked it up on a church finder website and saw that they offer two Sunday services: the Milk Session and the Meat Session. Gotta love that.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests