Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

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stuck
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Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

Post by stuck » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:06 am

Many of us started having doubts about the church 8+ years ago. But unfortunately, some of us are still involved with the cult. Some of us have spouses who still believe and extended family who still believe. I guess my question is how do we balance our negativity about the church so that we do not become too depressed about it and also so that we can still have good relations with our spouses and extended family? I know that Red Ryder and the Pirate (sorry can't remember his screen name :shock: ) have said that perhaps it's good to just not focus on the church too much within our families. I believe others have also said that they avoid looking at sites that have a lot of anger directed towards the church. And others have said that they have shifted their interests to other things not church related. What are some other things you guys do to keep the negativity in check?

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Palerider
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Re: Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

Post by Palerider » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:27 am

So I've been reading the book "Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith."

Something I've learned about his personality is the psychological concept of "Splitting". It's a defense mechanism used by children and sometimes adolescents that defines the world and relationships with people in black and white. There are no grays. It's not a mature defense mechanism and most "healthy" people usually grow out of it as they leave their teens. They learn better how to cope by seeing that the world and people have a lot of grays. No situation/person is perfectly good or bad. We learn to be happy in spite of the grays.

As I considered that idea I realized that there actually are "some" good things about the church. Especially when thinking of the members. Many of the members are really great people and the church can be a stabilizing force for them for a time until they grow out of it. (Admittedly some never do).

But my point is that the Corp is a relatively soft cult compared to some. And as ex cult members we may have to see the church and our TBM friends and family in the "grays" for a time in order to be happy within ourselves.

That doesn't mean taking a lot of crap from them. I wouldn't be afraid to defend my position to friends and family but I'm not sure looking for a conflict is going to get us anywhere either.

One last thought.

It seems to me that the Corp, having been founded by a narcissist with a "splitting" disorder, apparently embedded that mentality into the culture. And it seems to attract or draw those immature types of un-integrated personalities to it. People who see most things and people in black and white.

Knowing that fact I don't hold my breath waiting for people to grow out of their immature state. Better to learn how to deal with it as best we can.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Red Ryder
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Re: Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:34 pm

Great response Pale. Fascinating stuff when you consider the thread and patterns of the modern Mormon quilt.

It’s important we recognize there is some goodness in the church. The Cult label fits like an oversized suit. It’s wearable but not exactly a perfect fit. Perhaps this is the undertone of Pales black or white language used. It’s gray.

To answer the OP, I’d say you have to stop drinking the Kool-aid or at least dilute it while living with Mormons.

How do you dilute?

Think for yourself.
Make your own decisions
Talk about the leaders however true to you.
Ask why do I do certain things?
Keep what you like.
Throw out what you don’t.
Reserve the right to change your mind.
Find your inner self
Send Red Ryder money.
Live a meaningful life
Make new friends
Seek out new hobbies
Learn something new to gain knowledge
Remember the pirate’s name is Corsair! 😂
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

Reuben
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Re: Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

Post by Reuben » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:18 pm

stuck wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:06 am
I know that Red Ryder and the Pirate (sorry can't remember his screen name :shock: ) have said that perhaps it's good to just not focus on the church too much within our families. I believe others have also said that they avoid looking at sites that have a lot of anger directed towards the church. And others have said that they have shifted their interests to other things not church related.
I don't have anything important to add to this short list, but I want to point out that all of them help by making the church feel like less of a threat. To the extent that the church feels like a threat, our brains, in a somewhat misguided attempt to keep us alive, will obsess over it.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

stuck
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Re: Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

Post by stuck » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:24 am

Palerider wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:27 am

But my point is that the Corp is a relatively soft cult compared to some. And as ex cult members we may have to see the church and our TBM friends and family in the "grays" for a time in order to be happy within ourselves.

One last thought.

It seems to me that the Corp, having been founded by a narcissist with a "splitting" disorder, apparently embedded that mentality into the culture. And it seems to attract or draw those immature types of un-integrated personalities to it. People who see most things and people in black and white.

Knowing that fact I don't hold my breath waiting for people to grow out of their immature state. Better to learn how to deal with it as best we can.
This is great Palerider! Now the question is, is it better to be fully authentic and let family members know that we no longer believe or better to "fly under the radar" and be liberal or progressive mormons?

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alas
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Re: Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

Post by alas » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:09 am

stuck wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:24 am
Palerider wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:27 am

But my point is that the Corp is a relatively soft cult compared to some. And as ex cult members we may have to see the church and our TBM friends and family in the "grays" for a time in order to be happy within ourselves.

One last thought.

It seems to me that the Corp, having been founded by a narcissist with a "splitting" disorder, apparently embedded that mentality into the culture. And it seems to attract or draw those immature types of un-integrated personalities to it. People who see most things and people in black and white.

Knowing that fact I don't hold my breath waiting for people to grow out of their immature state. Better to learn how to deal with it as best we can.
This is great Palerider! Now the question is, is it better to be fully authentic and let family members know that we no longer believe or better to "fly under the radar" and be liberal or progressive mormons?
Is it better to be fully authentic or to fly under the radar? Depends. There have been some on Nom get their family out both ways, and there have been many who learned to live happily with TBMs both ways. There was one guy, called himself SSteacher I think, who said he was moving at a glacial pace to inform his family and lead them out. He took some 15 years to finally tell his wife he was a total nonbeliever and wanted out of the church. By this time, he had slowly taught her all kinds of history and a believer would say “undermined” her trust in church leaders. She was ready to leave with him. Others have dumped it all in their spouse’s lap, and the spouse has quickly decided to leave too. Some have dumped it on their spouse and ended up divorced. Others have had their spouse leave then decide to divorce. Some have slowly introduced their spouse to the idea that they doubt, then taken years to tell them they want coffee, then a few more years to say they want out. Others do it all at once so they don’t cut the dogs tail off an inch at a time.

You know your spouse and parents, children, and extended family better than we do, so you are the best judge on how to handle things.

In general, Nom as a community has noticed that the dramatic all at once tends to cause a big blow up instead of manageable discussions. So, in general people have tended to advise going slow. Namers used to advise take it slow a lot.

In general, if you can do it as a family, learning things together and discussing things it seems to go smoothest of all, but it is rare for both partners to be ready at the same time and I have seen very trusting wives “led” out of the church and then feel betrayed because they really didn’t want their testimony pulled out from under them.

There is such a thing as retrenchment where you expressing doubt causes your spouse to hang on tighter and try to show you how wrong you are by being more religious themselves. This is a good sign you are moving too fast for your spouse.

So, personally, I think there is merit in taking it slow. You want to convince your spouse that the doubts are honest and a search for truth, not just a desire to sin. This is why you want to be the best spouse you possibly can, so spouse doesn’t see you as a selfish jerk who just wants to do drugs and alcohol. You don’t want to cause the spouse to retrench. And you don’t want the fear that you are doing things behind their back, that destroys trust. So, be as open with thoughts as you feel safe, and 100% open with behavior.

stuck
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:48 pm

Re: Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

Post by stuck » Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:34 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:34 pm

To answer the OP, I’d say you have to stop drinking the Kool-aid or at least dilute it while living with Mormons.

How do you dilute?

Think for yourself.
Make your own decisions
Talk about the leaders however true to you.
Ask why do I do certain things?
Keep what you like.
Throw out what you don’t.
Reserve the right to change your mind.
Find your inner self
Send Red Ryder money.
Live a meaningful life
Make new friends
Seek out new hobbies
Learn something new to gain knowledge
Remember the pirate’s name is Corsair! 😂
I like Send Red Ryder money :lol: Sorry Corsair for forgetting your screen name :cry:

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Hagoth
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Re: Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:42 am

I know I have talked about this before (because I'm a bit of a revolving door!), but I love Alan Watt's revolving door analogy, and I think it applies to this question.

Watts compares churches to doors. The purpose of a door is to help you get from one place to the other. The problem with churches is that they are revolving doors and they believe their main purpose is to keep you going around and around in them as long as possible. They don't want to deliver you to the next room because they think they are more important.

What Watts doesn't talk about is what you do with the people still going around in circles once you have finally extricated yourself. And that is the real conundrum for most of us here. Of course, you don't want to stay trapped in the door when you've discovered the banquet room on the other side, but you love the people still going around and around. I guess some NOMs stay in the door but are constantly watching what is happening outside (it's made of glass, afterall). Some hop on and off as needed to help their loved ones not feel abandoned. Some try to drag their loved ones out and either succeed or lose limbs in the process. Some step off but remain nearby, offering encouragement and support (that's me, I guess). Some just walk away entirely; the time-honored F**k This S**t response.

When LDS believers testify to me, or say things that I now find kinda crazy I just smile and nod, but I have some softball responses that I have been useful. One of my favorites, that I probably got from somebody here is, "if you still believe the same things at age 50 that you believed at age 25, you have wasted 25 years." The next tier up is "No matter how much I have tried, I just can't make myself believe in angels with gold plates." "Have you read the Gospel Topic essays?" is almost always a great segue to moving the conversation along. Of course, it's difficult to make yourself heard in the moment they are whizzing past you in the revolving door.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

stuck
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Re: Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

Post by stuck » Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:46 am

alas wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:09 am

Is it better to be fully authentic or to fly under the radar? Depends. There have been some on Nom get their family out both ways, and there have been many who learned to live happily with TBMs both ways. There was one guy, called himself SSteacher I think, who said he was moving at a glacial pace to inform his family and lead them out. He took some 15 years to finally tell his wife he was a total nonbeliever and wanted out of the church. By this time, he had slowly taught her all kinds of history and a believer would say “undermined” her trust in church leaders. She was ready to leave with him. Others have dumped it all in their spouse’s lap, and the spouse has quickly decided to leave too. Some have dumped it on their spouse and ended up divorced. Others have had their spouse leave then decide to divorce. Some have slowly introduced their spouse to the idea that they doubt, then taken years to tell them they want coffee, then a few more years to say they want out. Others do it all at once so they don’t cut the dogs tail off an inch at a time.

You know your spouse and parents, children, and extended family better than we do, so you are the best judge on how to handle things.

In general, Nom as a community has noticed that the dramatic all at once tends to cause a big blow up instead of manageable discussions. So, in general people have tended to advise going slow. Namers used to advise take it slow a lot.

In general, if you can do it as a family, learning things together and discussing things it seems to go smoothest of all, but it is rare for both partners to be ready at the same time and I have seen very trusting wives “led” out of the church and then feel betrayed because they really didn’t want their testimony pulled out from under them.

There is such a thing as retrenchment where you expressing doubt causes your spouse to hang on tighter and try to show you how wrong you are by being more religious themselves. This is a good sign you are moving too fast for your spouse.

So, personally, I think there is merit in taking it slow. You want to convince your spouse that the doubts are honest and a search for truth, not just a desire to sin. This is why you want to be the best spouse you possibly can, so spouse doesn’t see you as a selfish jerk who just wants to do drugs and alcohol. You don’t want to cause the spouse to retrench. And you don’t want the fear that you are doing things behind their back, that destroys trust. So, be as open with thoughts as you feel safe, and 100% open with behavior.
Yes I think keeping thoughts and behavior open is probably the wisest way, but easier said than done for me. I just listen to Mormon Stories and RFM and this website without her knowing (I think she knows but I don't share it with her). And I drink coffee. Again I think she knows but I don't tell her about it unless she asks. I would at some point like to drink an alcoholic beverage for the experience of it. I know like tobacco it is not good for the body. Not because I believe in the Word of wisdom but because medical science backs it up. But if I try it once, it probably wouldn't hurt me right? What do you think of trying alcohol, is it worth it or not? This might be another good thread to start including marajuana right? Isn't it supposed to help with anxiety and depression?

dogbite
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Location: SLC

Re: Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

Post by dogbite » Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:50 am

For my purposes, just walk away and disengage. Anything else tends to generate more attachment issues. And i'm finding there is some wisdom in the Buddhist views of the perils of attachment. I'm not in total agreement as there are attachments I value and pursue. But an attachment (positive or negative) to Mormonism is now just frustrating and interferes in my relationships with people in and out of the church. I find it better to be in no category of affiliation to or from Mormonism.

I've become teflon towards it.

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Palerider
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Re: Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

Post by Palerider » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:53 am

stuck wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:46 am

I would at some point like to drink an alcoholic beverage for the experience of it....... But if I try it once, it probably wouldn't hurt me right? What do you think of trying alcohol, is it worth it or not?
Interesting that my son (RM and married in the temple) left the church about the same time I did. We were traveling parallel paths unknowingly.

He decided to try alcohol just once and had a couple of drinks. He told me later that he really didn't like the feeling of not being in full control of himself. He was very uncomfortable. So he answered that question with a considered "No".

We had talked about it over the years when he was growing up. We have a genetic tendency towards alcoholism in our family. He had seen a very nice guy in one of our wards who was alcoholic and came to church intoxicated a few times. We all felt badly for him and were embarrassed for him. It made a lasting impression on my son.

I know there are numerous here who have a drink from time to time and I wouldn't judge anyone for having a little wine with dinner. Whatever.

But for me, I just don't get it. I'm just happy the way I am and feel zero need to try and enhance that feeling artificially. 8-)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

stuck
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:48 pm

Re: Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

Post by stuck » Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:32 pm

Palerider wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:53 am
stuck wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:46 am

I would at some point like to drink an alcoholic beverage for the experience of it....... But if I try it once, it probably wouldn't hurt me right? What do you think of trying alcohol, is it worth it or not?
Interesting that my son (RM and married in the temple) left the church about the same time I did. We were traveling parallel paths unknowingly.

He decided to try alcohol just once and had a couple of drinks. He told me later that he really didn't like the feeling of not being in full control of himself. He was very uncomfortable. So he answered that question with a considered "No".

We had talked about it over the years when he was growing up. We have a genetic tendency towards alcoholism in our family. He had seen a very nice guy in one of our wards who was alcoholic and came to church intoxicated a few times. We all felt badly for him and were embarrassed for him. It made a lasting impression on my son.

I know there are numerous here who have a drink from time to time and I wouldn't judge anyone for having a little wine with dinner. Whatever.

But for me, I just don't get it. I'm just happy the way I am and feel zero need to try and enhance that feeling artificially. 8-)
I did have one of those non-alcoholic beers one time and it did cause a bit of brain fog and I didn't like it. I've heard others say though that it helps in social situations. I think it's probably best not to pursue it. But maybe one day I'll try a real beer to see what it's like. I made the mistake of telling my wife when I was still tbm that only about 50% of alcohol cooks out of food. Now she doesn't want me to even try food with alcohol in it. She would definitely be against trying the beer--oh well

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Red Ryder
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Re: Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:53 pm

Be like Jesus and drink wine.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

stuck
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Re: Now that we know Mormonism is a cult what do we do?

Post by stuck » Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:01 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:53 pm
Be like Jesus and drink wine.
I like that Red! If Jesus had to perform the miracle of turning water into wine that tells you something right? :D

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