The Assumptions

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Linked
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The Assumptions

Post by Linked » Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:57 pm

My TBM dad will often bring up church stuff to me. He's old and I appreciate that we can still spend some time together so I try not to get to bothered by it. But it's impossible not to be bored with it and think he is off in a make believe universe coming up with ideas that are as real as The Avengers. His "make believe universe" is built on a bunch of assumptions that he shares with other TBMs but that I no longer share.

Assumptions:
- "Self" is more than just a body with a brain. The self persists in some form before birth and/or after death.
- There is an entity that controls the universe. "God"
- God regularly asserts his control over the universe.
- God has an interest in what humans are doing. For mormons God is the father of human "selfs".
- God has rules.
- Those rules apply to the humans.

And that's all before getting to Jesus, Joseph Smith, or the priesthood. I would enjoy a conversation with my dad about the purpose of life if he didn't talk at me starting with these assumptions.

I think this is somewhat by design. By starting with God is our Father who loves us and Jesus is our big brother it eliminates a whole bunch of competing possible beliefs. Someone raised TBM may not have ever really considered the assumptions. They are encouraged to learn and discuss within the assumptions, so they can feel like they are really considering things without ever touching the real questions.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Ghost
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Re: The Assumptions

Post by Ghost » Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:26 pm

It was certainly the case for me that I didn't realize exactly what could be questioned. Or maybe I did on some level but didn't allow myself to really entertain the thought.

Maybe it's important that certain fundamental propositions seem "obviously" true because if they are not obvious then they are open to questioning and that's uncomfortable.

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Red Ryder
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Re: The Assumptions

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:47 am

Let’s take this discussion back about 6,000 years when the world was created and Adam and Eve found themselves alone in the garden of Eden. Their knowledge was limited to their surroundings. From the movies I’ve seen, their life was simple. Adam wandered around behind some bushes looking for sheep and other animals while Eve did the same. We all know Eve eventually found a tree with some type of fruit and started talking to a snake. The snake beguiles her and she eats the fruit of the tree. Adam does too in the next episode and they find themselves kicked out of their garden home in a dark and dreary neighborhood.

Can you imagine what that feels like?

So they rely on their assumptions for safety and comfort. Slowly wandering into new parts of their world, exploring in a vulnerable manner that allows them to build new knowledge and experience. With this experience they become less hesitant and more willing to push further. Perhaps into the west side of the jungle where the lions and tigers and bears live! Oh my!

After some time they build a few condos, develop a birthing center to accommodate high growth population density, and mega clothing factories to clothe the naked.

Adam and Eve were forced to adapt and survive in this harsh world environment.

6,000 years later….

Your dad, my dad, and every Mormon man, woman, and child can sit safely inside their own homes knowing without a doubt that their belief system is true. The only requirement for continued safety is to repeat the same assumptions that support their belief. It’s that simple. Repeat it until it’s part of you.

Wandering outside the comforts of our minds and questioning our beliefs, doctrines, and testimonies pushed us out of our garden of Eden. Some of us did willingly. Some of us did accidentally. Some of us purposely. We ate the fruit. It tasted great! It opened our eyes! It gave us the ability to think freely.

Others just remind themselves to stay away from weird naked religious ideas that challenge their beliefs by repeating the same old assumptions. It stunts their religious growth and spiritual journey. It keeps them safe. It keeps them comfortable. It keeps them bound to the church.

I know the church is true. God lives and loves each one of us. He knows our hearts and gives us the gift of religious repetition so that our minds won’t wander into the light ultimately leaving him alone in the Garden of Eden while we enjoy doing things without him. Amen
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Corsair
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Re: The Assumptions

Post by Corsair » Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:20 pm

Linked wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:57 pm
Assumptions:
- "Self" is more than just a body with a brain. The self persists in some form before birth and/or after death.
- There is an entity that controls the universe. "God"
- God regularly asserts his control over the universe.
- God has an interest in what humans are doing. For mormons God is the father of human "selfs".
- God has rules.
- Those rules apply to the humans.
Not too many religious belief systems would reject these assumptions. Atheists and agnostics might not agree, but these don't establish very much that is going to govern your life.. Suppose you went to your father and said, "I agree that those assumptions are valid. I have just converted to Zoroastrianism." Even worse, you could watch the 1982 movie, "Conan the Barbarian" with Arnold Schwarzenegger and decide that you now worship Crom and must find the answer to the Riddle of Steel.

It's a long way from these assumptions before you finally decide to renew your temple recommend and start paying tithing.

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Red Ryder
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Re: The Assumptions

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:34 pm

Corsair wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:20 pm
…and must find the answer to the Riddle of Steel.
I’m sure that one Angel with a flaming sword can answer your silly riddle.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Linked
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Re: The Assumptions

Post by Linked » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:49 pm

Corsair wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:20 pm

It's a long way from these assumptions before you finally decide to renew your temple recommend and start paying tithing.
Oh definitely, those are just some of the lower level assumptions I could think of. There's lots more, and that makes a good faith religious discussion with a TBM difficult. I am unable to hear their point because it is built on a bunch of assumptions that I get stuck on and they can't hear my point because they can't even imagine honestly questioning the assumptions.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Linked
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Re: The Assumptions

Post by Linked » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:52 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:47 am
Let’s take this discussion back about 6,000 years when the world was created and Adam and Eve found themselves alone in the garden of Eden. Their knowledge was limited to their surroundings. From the movies I’ve seen, their life was simple. Adam wandered around behind some bushes looking for sheep and other animals while Eve did the same. We all know Eve eventually found a tree with some type of fruit and started talking to a snake. The snake beguiles her and she eats the fruit of the tree. Adam does too in the next episode and they find themselves kicked out of their garden home in a dark and dreary neighborhood.

Can you imagine what that feels like?

So they rely on their assumptions for safety and comfort. Slowly wandering into new parts of their world, exploring in a vulnerable manner that allows them to build new knowledge and experience. With this experience they become less hesitant and more willing to push further. Perhaps into the west side of the jungle where the lions and tigers and bears live! Oh my!

After some time they build a few condos, develop a birthing center to accommodate high growth population density, and mega clothing factories to clothe the naked.

Adam and Eve were forced to adapt and survive in this harsh world environment.

6,000 years later….

Your dad, my dad, and every Mormon man, woman, and child can sit safely inside their own homes knowing without a doubt that their belief system is true. The only requirement for continued safety is to repeat the same assumptions that support their belief. It’s that simple. Repeat it until it’s part of you.

Wandering outside the comforts of our minds and questioning our beliefs, doctrines, and testimonies pushed us out of our garden of Eden. Some of us did willingly. Some of us did accidentally. Some of us purposely. We ate the fruit. It tasted great! It opened our eyes! It gave us the ability to think freely.

Others just remind themselves to stay away from weird naked religious ideas that challenge their beliefs by repeating the same old assumptions. It stunts their religious growth and spiritual journey. It keeps them safe. It keeps them comfortable. It keeps them bound to the church.

I know the church is true. God lives and loves each one of us. He knows our hearts and gives us the gift of religious repetition so that our minds won’t wander into the light ultimately leaving him alone in the Garden of Eden while we enjoy doing things without him. Amen
Some very well-placed bushes all over the garden :D

Great write up.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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wtfluff
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Re: The Assumptions

Post by wtfluff » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:11 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:47 am
Your dad, my dad, and every Mormon man, woman, and child can sit safely inside their own homes knowing without a doubt that their belief system is true. The only requirement for continued safety is to repeat the same assumptions that support their belief. It’s that simple. Repeat it until it’s part of you.
Wow cowboy. Talk about wrapping up "Being a member of the COJCOL-dS™" in a nice tidy bow!

I remember a short conversation with a believer soon after I had pulled back the curtain, and the believer used the thought-terminating cliche: "You get out of it what you put into it" referring to meeting attendance. I "called him out" and asked: How do you do that? We literally repeat basically the same "study manuals" every four years. We sit in Sunday "school" and ask the same questions and give the same answers over and over. If anyone draws outside the lines a tiny bit and says something or asks something that doesn't line up with "doctrine" the "retired" high-councilman in the back corner jumps in and corrects everyone and gets them back inside the lines. HOW DO YOU PUT MORE INTO IT? (I didn't really yell, but I did say those words.) My believing friend though for a few moments and replied: "You've got a point." If I remember correctly, the subject of discussion changed quickly after that moment of clarity.


Two plus two equals four.
Two plus two equals four.
Two plus two equals four.
Two plus two equals four.
Two plus two equals four.

If I stop repeating the above sentence will I stop believing that two plus two equals four?

I believe I may have to "accidentally" say something about the Church of Repetition some time in the presence of believing folks...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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Corsair
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Re: The Assumptions

Post by Corsair » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:04 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:34 pm
Corsair wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:20 pm
…and must find the answer to the Riddle of Steel.
I’m sure that one Angel with a flaming sword can answer your silly riddle.
Or James Earl Jones will provide the answer. The answer to the Riddle of Steel shows up in any history where men wield power over another.

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