NOM

A friend who currently teaches religion/history at BYU has offered to do a fireside in our ward. He suggested something on the old testament to prepare for the proof texting of next year's come follow me course.

What are some alternative topics I should ask him to speak on?

græy wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:09 pm

A friend who currently teaches religion/history at BYU has offered to do a fireside in our ward. He suggested something on the old testament to prepare for the proof texting of next year's come follow me course.

What are some alternative topics I should ask him to speak on?

How to reconcile that most scholars agree that a global flood and Tower of Babel are not historical with the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith producing doctrine that absolutely needs them to be historical.

Maybe the documentary hypothesis or maybe why the god of the ot is so much different than the nt

What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

Why does God kill his kids?

Location and date of the Garden of Eden.

How to avoid the pitfalls of prooftexting.

Why do we still teach that the "wounds in thy hands..." in Zechariah 13:6 refers to Jesus when it obviously doesn't now that we have newer/better translations?
https://biblehub.com/kjv/zechariah/13-6.htm
And why didn't God know that when he added "and in thy feet" in the D&C?

Why do we still teach that the sticks of Joseph and Judah refer to books?

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

Ask him about how long the continents have existed and how they got separated. Refer him to Jeffrey Holland's A Promised Land talk: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng

Ask him whether we should believe anything Joseph Fielding Smith or Bruce R. McConkie taught about the history of the earth. And why they should/should not be trusted and believed.

stuck wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:05 pm

Maybe the documentary hypothesis or maybe why the god of the ot is so much different than the nt

Totally agree even though it is meant more as the typical devotional approach I think one could weave in some actual historical analysis. This would at least be interesting. I loved learning about the JPED sources. Absolutely fascinating. I would actually want to attend SS if we talked about that.

Also, early Israelites had more of a pantheon early on more than we see on the surface in the OT. And also, clearly even in the OT we have very different versions of God (compare Joshua and Jonah) as well as the NT (compare the gospels to the Book of Revelation). These would be at least interesting discussions to have.

My friends! These are great answers. I'll have to see if I can figure out a good way to phrase them to make them seem at least sincere.

I'd like to know what proof texts support the current temple ordinances today that are claimed to be of "ancient" origin.

Other than some possible similarities in the clothing as noted in this illustration, is there anything that supports the ceremony "restored" by Joseph Smith.

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:16 pm

What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

Palerider wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:46 pm

I'd like to know what proof texts support the current temple ordinances today that are claimed to be of "ancient" origin.

That's a great question. The basin with 12 oxen seems to be the go-to answer, but that's just lifted directly from the OT and misappropriated. The ancient temple had a holy of holies. Again, just name borrowing. And an altar. If you really want to claim that LDS temples are a restoration of ancient ritual what you should be looking for is buckets of blood all over the alter and floor.
The masonic connection is so much stronger it hardly makes sense looking any deeper in time:
If members want to get in touch with the most ancient origins of the temple ceremony, what they really should be reading is Duncan's Ritual, not the Old Testament.

The BYU biology department teaches that evolution is true. That blows the Biblical Creation/Eden story out of the water and requires that it is purely symbolic. If The Fall is symbolic, does that mean Jesus' redemption from The Fall is also merely symbolic?

And while we're at it, how does JFS's teaching that dinosaur bones come from other planets fit into all of this?

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:21 am

The BYU biology department teaches that evolution is true. That blows the Biblical Creation/Eden story out of the water and requires that it is purely symbolic. If The Fall is symbolic, does that mean Jesus' redemption from The Fall is also merely symbolic?

And while we're at it, how does JFS's teaching that dinosaur bones come from other planets fit into all of this?

I think someone from the old board said this, but I could be wrong.

If you talk to a BYU Biology professor, they will say that, yes, evolution is fact, but everything else about the church is true.
If you talk to a BYU Egyptology professor, they will say that, no, the BOA is not a direct translation, but everything else about the church is true.
If you talk to a BYU Paleontology professor, they will say that, yes, dinosaurs existed millions of years ago, but everything else about the church is true.
If you talk to a BYU Meso-American Studies professor, they will say that, no, the BOM is not a literal history of the Native Americans, but everything else about the church is true.
And on and on...

Each person will recognize the facts in their field will prove one part of the church's story is wrong, but will compartmentalize and ignore everything else. But when you look at everything together, it is clear that every aspect of the church is dis-proven by modern science.

Reuben wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:43 pm

How to avoid the pitfalls of prooftexting.

Ooooh, I like this one! I mean, it’s a legit study problem, and you can point that out with examples of other religions that do this or how Mormons can even fall into the trap of justifying a pet belief that may not be supported by la Iglesia.

stuck wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:05 pm

Maybe the documentary hypothesis or maybe why the god of the ot is so much different than the nt

Maybe psyche-evolution, Flynn effect?
Carl Jung kinda answered this.
Jung wrote about how especially historically - we & our ancestors have been making god in our own image - from our own imagination. Jung explained that people saw God as tyrannical, unpredictable (blaming or crediting God for weather/crops) & unreasonable.

BYU had an exhibit about how many positive or negative emotions of God were mentioned in the scriptures. Comparing how often certain words like love or hate came up - there are many punitive ideas of God, especially in the OT.

Carl Jung wrote how the beginning of Judaism’s history, only the Masculine element of God was realized. Not until Job, was the other side discovered. Jung wrote...
“Though conscious of these demands, Job obviously does not know enough about the Sophia who is coeternal with God.

...Thus it was the men of the last few centuries before Christ who, at the gentle touch of the pre-existent Sophia compensate Yahweh and his attitude, and that the same time complete the anamnesis of Wisdom. Taking a highly personified form that is clear proof of her autonomy, Wisdom reveals herself to men as a friendly helper and advocate against Yahweh, and shows them the bright side, the kind, just and amiable aspect of their God.

...Her [Sophia’s] co-existence with Yahweh signifies the perpetual hieros gamos from which worlds are begotten and born.

...The approach of Sophia betokens a new creation. But this time it is not the world that is to be changed; rather it is God who intends to change his own nature. Mankind is not, as before, to be destroyed, but saved.”


Jordan Peterson suggested that Christianity seemed to have gone too soft/feminine, so Revelations is there to remind us of the Masculine side of divinity. One way or the other, “there must needs be opposition in all things.”

Job was a turning point when finally someone dared question God! All that time, nobody questioned God - or rather they didn’t question their imaginings of God. Yet, they had boldly claimed their unquestioned imaginings as “scripture” & thus we have some insanity like God saying, “Thou shalt not kill, not steal” and then supposedly telling them to steal and kill masses. If any passage is going to prove that we project our own ideas onto God - that is a good example. We need to “wrestle with God” - we’re supposed to. Scott Peck suggested an important lesson from the Adam & Eve parable is to question God - rather than to assume one thing or another - ask God - get more knowledge before doing something stupid. Carl Jung explained how Job was a turning point from seeing God as unreasonable, unpredictably punitive & one you couldn’t question... to questioning God and developing necessary faith in a more wise, reasonable God.

What was the greater miracle?
1) That president Nelson survived the firey spiral of death airplane where an engine exploded and flaming oil and fuel were put out by the spiral death dive
Or
2) That the safety investigation and pilot report indicated there was no damage to the aircraft.

Newme wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:55 am

stuck wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:05 pm

Maybe the documentary hypothesis or maybe why the god of the ot is so much different than the nt

Maybe psyche-evolution, Flynn effect?
Carl Jung kinda answered this.

You might also look to Jewish mystical/Kabbalistic teachings where the mind of God is broken down to its component characteristics and their hierarchical relationships. Spoiler: they just HAPPEN to align perfectly with the hierarchy and primary qualities of the gods and goddesses in the Assyrian pantheon. Hmm.