Debate night live thread!!!!!!

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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deacon blues
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by deacon blues » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:48 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:52 am
Just This Guy wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:28 pm
To the idea of having to replace one faith with another:

Let's look at that from a different angle. Cars.
Make it much easier.

If you're walking along and you see someone drive into the parking lot with a flat tire that they haven't noticed, you tell them they have a flat tire.

Only an idiot would look at you angrily and say, "Okay wise guy. Now that you've pointed out my flat tire, it's your job to replace it!"
This is priceless, Thanks PR. :D
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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wtfluff
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by wtfluff » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:48 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:14 am
Also...

What's the deal with "woke?" You know you're listening to a Fox News junkie when they angrily spout that word like it actually means something (Cardon Ellis). Can someone help me understand this better? It is obviously a derogative term that refers to people who are concerned about people of color, women, LGBTQ issues, economic inequality, and the survival of the planet. Why is that a such bad thing?

Shouldn't we all be striving to be more awake to the distress of others? Shouldn't self-proclaimed Christians be at the vanguard? Is asleep better? Maybe sleepwalking?
Yeah, if you remove the MM's rants about "woke", "wokeism", and Judeo-Christian values saving the universe, there's not much left...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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blazerb
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by blazerb » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:54 pm
The thing is: they are right.

The church today is NOT the church I grew up in in the 70's and 80's, not is it the church that existed when I served a mission in the 90's. This raises two questions:

1. If the doctrine does not change then how to explain all the changes?
2. Why does it always seem to change in response to the critics?
-sidebar- if not for people like RFM, Kate Kelly, The Tanners, etc. then the church that RFM is describing to you would have been your experience as well MM"s.

-lost
I agree . The church today is not the one I grew up in. However, I don't think it's the one that the MMs proclaim either. The church is going to abuse LGBTQ+ persons for the foreseeable future. It is not going to allow its scholars to engage in real scholarship regarding the church except in very safe ways that don't actually change what is taught in SS. We all hear the deeply flawed history lessons given in conference, mostly by Cook but others chip some zingers too. The church is not going to take any real action to stop the DezNat groups. These are problems. They are not the fault of the exmo's.

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moksha
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by moksha » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:40 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:14 am
What's the deal with "woke?" Why is that a such bad thing?
Because any self-respecting Mormon should be asleep at the switch and unaware of issues surrounding them, that way they will have no counter opinions when they are obeying their Authorities.

Midnight Mormon is counting on members being asleep at the switch and not noticing all the apologetic misdirection they are given.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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MoPag
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by MoPag » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:43 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:14 am
Also...

What's the deal with "woke?" You know you're listening to a Fox News junkie when they angrily spout that word like it actually means something (Cardon Ellis). Can someone help me understand this better? It is obviously a derogative term that refers to people who are concerned about people of color, women, LGBTQ issues, economic inequality, and the survival of the planet. Why is that a such bad thing?

Shouldn't we all be striving to be more awake to the distress of others? Shouldn't self-proclaimed Christians be at the vanguard? Is asleep better? Maybe sleepwalking?
I believe the term "woke" was used by Black people to refer to non Black people who could see and would fight against all the racist systems imbedded in our culture. Then it spread from seeing racism to include sexism and homophobia. Basically it's an understanding that the world you live in is not the same world that a person of a different gender, sexual orientation or skin color lives in.

You would think people who profess to follow Christ would care about marginalized peoples. But no. I think they put a lot of energy into down playing and denying the blatant racism sexism and homophobia that woke people are tying to bring attention too. My guess is that their denial stems from their deep insecurities.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

Reuben
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Reuben » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:35 pm

MoPag wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:43 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:14 am
Also...

What's the deal with "woke?" You know you're listening to a Fox News junkie when they angrily spout that word like it actually means something (Cardon Ellis). Can someone help me understand this better? It is obviously a derogative term that refers to people who are concerned about people of color, women, LGBTQ issues, economic inequality, and the survival of the planet. Why is that a such bad thing?

Shouldn't we all be striving to be more awake to the distress of others? Shouldn't self-proclaimed Christians be at the vanguard? Is asleep better? Maybe sleepwalking?
I believe the term "woke" was used by Black people to refer to non Black people who could see and would fight against all the racist systems imbedded in our culture. Then it spread from seeing racism to include sexism and homophobia. Basically it's an understanding that the world you live in is not the same world that a person of a different gender, sexual orientation or skin color lives in.

You would think people who profess to follow Christ would care about marginalized peoples. But no. I think they put a lot of energy into down playing and denying the blatant racism sexism and homophobia that woke people are tying to bring attention too. My guess is that their denial stems from their deep insecurities.
I think it's political polarization more than anything.

There IS a contingent of progressives for whom movements like BLM take on near-religious significance. Conservatives see this kind of political fundamentalism and - being the good tribal humans they are - stereotype everyone one the left as being that way. They'll hurl the word "woke" at people to accuse them of being fanatics if they lean the same direction as the fanatics.

Rather like you've misunderstood their accusation of "woke," stereotyped them, and accused them of having deep insecurities. I know that's a common discussion point in conversations about minorities and privilege, but when it's applied to individuals you don't know, it's stereotyping.

I'm not mincing words here because I'm tired of political polarization. MM started it, but we don't have to keep it going.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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slk
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by slk » Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:25 pm

The best TSCC can do is find a guy that made the news for smuggling a knife on a plane and then they make this guy an apologist? With TSCC's $, I think they can do better than this.

I listened to this debate and it was pretty much a F&T meeting for the MMs. It was all about warm fuzzies and no science backed evidence.

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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:26 pm

slk wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:25 pm
The best TSCC can do is find a guy that made the news for smuggling a knife on a plane and then they make this guy an apologist? With TSCC's $, I think they can do better than this.

I listened to this debate and it was pretty much a F&T meeting for the MMs. It was all about warm fuzzies and no science backed evidence.
I exchanged email with a couple of the main people at FAIR. They think these guys are the secret sauce to keep young people from bailing out of the Good Ship Zion.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Palerider » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:12 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:26 pm
I exchanged email with a couple of the main people at FAIR. They think these guys are the secret sauce to keep young people from bailing out of the Good Ship Zion.
That's scary.....

That FAIR could be that desperate. They must be aware that they're losing this battle badly.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

Red Ryder
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:09 am

Palerider wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:12 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:26 pm
I exchanged email with a couple of the main people at FAIR. They think these guys are the secret sauce to keep young people from bailing out of the Good Ship Zion.
That's scary.....

That FAIR could be that desperate. They must be aware that they're losing this battle badly.
If only President Hinckley were still alive.

The church would be managing their Public Relations and image totally different.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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stealthbishop
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:21 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:12 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:26 pm
I exchanged email with a couple of the main people at FAIR. They think these guys are the secret sauce to keep young people from bailing out of the Good Ship Zion.
That's scary.....

That FAIR could be that desperate. They must be aware that they're losing this battle badly.
I think they are clearly desperate. They are really scrambling and have no idea what to do. If MM are the best they've got they are in very serious trouble. In another thread, there was made mention that the youth activities are in shambles. I totally agree. They just aren't fun. It's all about missionary work or family history. Terrible. Absolutely terrible.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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Just This Guy
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Just This Guy » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:51 pm

stealthbishop wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:21 pm
In another thread, there was made mention that the youth activities are in shambles. I totally agree. They just aren't fun. It's all about missionary work or family history. Terrible. Absolutely terrible.

When youth activities are planned by committee made up of 80+ year old men, you think that they may ever so slightly out of tough with the youth?
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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moksha
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by moksha » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:37 am

Cardon is outlining the latest reasoning by LDS apologetics: Why should the members risk eternal consternation by taking the Red Pill of Wokism which will show them the world as it exists?

Wouldn't it be better to take the Blue Pill of Make-Believe and stay content with the LDS Church who will mediate the chasm between God and themselves for a nominal fee? Midnight Mormons would urge the members to stay asleep and happy.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Red Ryder
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:35 am

moksha wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:37 am
Cardon is outlining the latest reasoning by LDS apologetics: Why should the members risk eternal consternation by taking the Red Pill of Wokism which will show them the world as it exists?

Wouldn't it be better to take the Blue Pill of Make-Believe and stay content with the LDS Church who will mediate the chasm between God and themselves for a nominal fee? Midnight Mormons would urge the members to stay asleep and happy.
Sounds like a parallel alternative modern version of Adam and Eve.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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MoPag
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by MoPag » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:30 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:09 am
Palerider wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:12 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:26 pm
I exchanged email with a couple of the main people at FAIR. They think these guys are the secret sauce to keep young people from bailing out of the Good Ship Zion.
That's scary.....

That FAIR could be that desperate. They must be aware that they're losing this battle badly.
If only President Hinckley were still alive.

The church would be managing their Public Relations and image totally different.
OMGs, I always wonder what GBH would do now too. Like part of me wants to belive he would not have f'ed up this bad.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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